Denial Of An Ugly Past Is Holding Turkey Back by Colin TatzNovember 8, 2010, Sydney Morning Herald/ “National Times”
The idea that Australia was born as a nation on Gallipoli's shores is now deeply cemented in our history books and national psyche. We are about to see the annual holding of hands by the former combatants on Armistice Day, when thousands will visit the "sacred site". Turks and Australians will join in understandable commemoration but less comprehensible celebration; and friendship societies will become tearful and lyrical during this anniversary of the shedding of brotherly blood. . .
But intruding on this mourning ritual is the growing world recognition of the Ottoman (and, later, Kemalist) Turkish genocide committed between 1915 and 1922. Some 26 nation states and more than 50 regional governments, including NSW and South Australia, formally recognise the Turkish attempts to annihilate 3 million Armenians and possibly 1 million Pontian Greeks and Christian Assyrians. At least 1.5 million Armenians were killed by bayoneting, beheading, bullets, butchering, crucifixion, drowning, elementary gas chambers, forced death marches, hanging, hot horseshoes, medical experiments, and other unprintable atrocities... .
Open Reply By Sukru Aya To Colin Tatz On Denial Of An Ugly Past Is Holding Turkey Back
Above Reply Has Been Sent to Professor Colin Tatz ( colintatz at gmail dot com & colin dot tatz at anu dot edu dot au )
We'll publish his response as soon as we receive any from him
Site Editors
Turkish Ambassador to Australia Oguz Ozge responds to Professor Tatz
November 16, 2010
What really happened to Armenians living under the Ottoman Empire in 1915, during the First World War is a matter of controversy. Armenian diaspora claims that the events of 1915 come within the realms of "genocide", whereas Turks argue that in no way can those events be considered as such. Until the events of 1915 are legally determined by a competent international court under the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide or the Armenians and Turks come to a reconciliation over the controversy, the issue will remain a contentious one.
In a recent National Times article Professor Colin Tatz apparently sides with the Armenian diaspora against Turkey as far as the events of 1915 are concerned. I do not intend responding to all the spurious arguments by Professor Tatz except for getting one important fact right. Professor Tatz's claim that "some 26 nation states and more than 50 regional governments, including NSW and South Australia, 'formally recognise the Turkish attempts to annihilate . . ." is misleading. It is a fact that 21 national parliaments and some regional assemblies have so far adopted resolutions favouring the Armenian arguments. The resolutions by legislative bodies are of a political nature and not binding on the governments. Consequently the claim of "formal recognition" by national states is not true and no single government has so far done so. Under what circumstances of wheeling and dealing those resolutions are passed in parliaments need not be elaborated here.
We are convinced that the events of 1915 are not a matter for legislators to consider because we take "genocide" very seriously. That is why we believe that historians from Turkey, Armenia and third countries should come together to ascertain the facts.
Last but not least, I wish to point out that in the past few years new claims have emerged whereby Greeks and Assyrians were also included in the list of victims by the Ottoman Empire. The scope of the so-called "genocide" list has now been further extended so as to cover the Christian population living under the Ottoman Empire. As an extension of that line of thinking it would have been misleading to exclude Anzac soldiers from such list, if the Christians had fallen victim to the so-called "genocide". That is why a number of persons have very recently started alleging that Anzac prisoners of war were subjected to ill-treatment in camps around Gallipoli. We should not let those ill-founded arguments damage the long relationship that has been forged between Australia and Turkey out of adversity in Gallipoli.
Open Letter to SMH/National Times of Australia on Prof Colin Tatz
17 November 2010
Dear Editor,
Prof. Colin Tatz, a visiting fellow at Australian National University, like many others who write about the Armenian issue with a totally biased view and to further their own agenda, has made many erroneous statements in his recent article, ‘’Denial of an ugly past is holding Turkey back’’, (Nov 8, 2010.) First of all, Turkey is already a modern democratic society and the fact that Turkey has played a role in the establishment of Australia as a nation at Gallipoli’s shores is accepted by many Australians and others. This is being demonstrated at an exhibition in Ankara, focusing on Ataturk and the Gallipoli Campaign, as part of a 10 year program to celebrate this affirmation on the 100th anniversary of this in 2015.
Second, Tatz ignores the fact that the Armenian issue was created by the west in order to break up the Ottoman Empire which harmed both the Armenians and the Turks. It is not only the Turks, as Turkish Amb. Oguz Ozge, stated in his letter to the Times, (Nov. 16, 2010) object to the labeling of massacres as genocide, since many Armenian Turks, foreign academicians and students in many countries, such as Prof. Justin McCharty, in America, many university students such as Maxime Gaugin in France, and others, have expressed views which support the Turkish thesis.
The enlightenment of Armenians along with other minorities in Turkey began with the establishment of schools by the Missioners all over the Ottoman Empire where the education was minimal. It is a fact that many Armenians educated at these institutions migrated to Europe and America and came back to fight with the rebellious Armenians who only wanted to establish an Armenian state on lands where they were not the majority, which the West promised them.
The Armenians and foreigners who support the genocide claim base this on several books published as either war propaganda or anti-Turkish material. Among these are Toynbee’s shameless ‘’Blue Book’’ and US Amb Morgenthau’s ‘’Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’’, Both, although translated into Turkish, have been proved to be written based on fabricated, false and forged documents and hear-say, especially those invented by some Christian missionaries to bad-mouth the Moslems. The resolutions passed by 26 nation states and 50 regional governments (and countless NGOs that Tatz does not mention) are as a result of support received from the Armenians for various reasons and not the nationals of each country and the influence of the above books and many others like them..
Third, the Armenians in Australia and all over the world should should start looking at the Armenian issue with an open mind and recognize the fact that the Armenians revolted and massacred many Turks going back to the 19th century. These have been all documented in many books and articles, which Tatz seems to ignore. Turks retaliated and massacred Armenians. Armenian rebels attacked Turkish villages while the men were fighting in four corners of the empire and were in the army. Many Armenians joined the Russian forces during the First World War, well over 150,00, and fought against their own government. The Ottomans were forced to re-locate the Armenians due to war conditions. Many returned and joined the French forces during the occupation of Clicia after the First World War and fought against the Turks. And of course, many Armenians in İstanbul, Kayseri and other cities continued with their lives, which is not mentioned by Tatz.
Finally, I would like to make a proposal to all concerned Armenians and Turks and to all NGOs, including the Hrant Dink Foundation, to begin the preparation of a parade across Turkey to commemorate the death of both the Turks and the Armenians before, during and after the First World War, together in 2015, and perhaps together with the Australians. We should stop writing endless articles on a subject that is not fully known according to the experts and politicized and get together to work on building friendship, as some are already doing. Perhaps we can call the parade, ‘’The Parade for Friendship and Peace’’, which can take place in major cities across Turkey and on to Baku and Erivan. Once the friendship is established, than everyone can talk about the issues and help each other to reconcile the differences as friends and not enemies. As ‘’Hopeful’’ commented on the article on Nov 9, ‘’The foreigners should get out of the away and let the Turks and Armenians work out their differences as ‘’neighbors.’’
Yüksel Oktay
İstanbul
Comments
For too long, Australia has brushed over the genocidal past and genocide-denying present of Turkey, a country that continues its relentless pressure to ethnically cleanse the country of all non-Islamic communities and, in the process, lose the heterogenous mix of communities and faiths that made the MIddle East the origin of the world's faiths. Every pressure should be put on the Turkish government to join the rest of the world and recognise its genocidal past.
Robert M Kaplan - November 09, 2010, 8:04AM
Thank you Professor Tatz for such an enlightening article. What most Australians don't know is that following the Great War, Turkish leaders were arrested and found guilty of the mistreatment of the Allied and Anzac POWs. The fate of the Anzac POWs in Turkey was just as tragic as their counterparts in Japan during WW2. But current Australian WW1 historiography is focused on romanticising the Gallipoli battle in order to bring it into line with the current strong economic ties between Turkey and Australia. However, the truth of the Armenian Genocide and the mistreatment of the Anzac POWs has been conveniently erased from the public's collective memory of Gallipoli. Australian Anzac, Sir Thomas White, was one such POW who wrote his experiences in Turkey in a book called "Guests of the Unspeakable "(1928). He documents the atrocious treatment of Anzac POWs as well as the systematic murder of the Armenian people.
Daniel | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 8:08AM
You had me until that little relativistic nugget at the end equating the accidental and partially designed frontier wars of colonisation with the Christian genocides in Turkey.
You also seem to advocate Turkey's entry into the EU. Pigs might fly as well - you'll have revolution across Europe before that happens.
Unfortunately, under the AKP party and the dismantling of Turkey's 'guided democracy' under the Kemalists, this nation is reverting back to previous norms observed during the long Ottoman empire.
..and under this Ottoman empire, the Christian minorities were tolerated under a dhimmi covenant, whereby if they protested their treatment or rebelled against their secondary class, they were liable for pograms and wholesale slaughter.
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 8:31AM
It is heartening to finally hear a western journalists openly discuss this shameful cover up by the Turkish government. The irony is that the the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, was quite honest and open about the genocide. It was only later that the curtains came down.
Western states have often colluded with Turkey's holocaust denial out of cynical self interest. And Muslim governments, addicted to a narrative of Muslim victimhood at the hands of the West, are loathe to acknowledge what is a historical fact.
Even in Australia, we have mealy mouthed diplomats and cultural relativists, who use terms like "alleged genocide" or "mass murder" out of a misguided desire to not offend elements within the Australian Turkish community.
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 9:32AM
This article misses a number of important facts that are essential to understanding the issue at hand – for one, why not mention that Armenians were trained and armed to the teeth by brotherly Christian Russia? Why not mention that Armenians managed to completely exterminate large Turkish/Kurdish populations a case in point being the city of Van?
There is no doubt that Armenians suffered terribly in WW1, but many others suffered terribly at their hands as well. People need to move on with their life instead of constantly reliving an event that happened 100 years ago.
The worst thing about this whole "article" is that by the end if basically implies that Turks are not "decent" people. How shameful, how disrespectful, how bluntly rude!
There are many other news outlets where biased propaganda can be written.
Australian | North Sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:38AM
@Australian | North Sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:38AM
Just admit it. When the French, British, Russians etc started to gain power in parts of the Levant/ME/Balkans, they put pressure on a weakened Ottoman Empire to stop their periodic massacres of the area's Christians. (Bulgaria, Lebanon eg)
Some Christian minorities took heart, organised and protested their dhimmi status. They then got jihad as per the Pact of Omar. They still do...
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 10:01AM
@ Australian
People cannot "move on" until the Turkish government acknowledges what happened and apologizes.
@SH
Please don't use this article as an excuse to engage in more ignorant Muslim bashing.
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 11:29AM
The turks have to admit for the genocide and compensate the Armenians including some land. Mt Arrarat which is the symbol of Armennia is few hundred kms from the border.
Returning the Konstantinopol and the surrounding area to Greece is the obvious next step.
Pamuk - November 09, 2010, 1:32PM
Which country is totally clean in all respects.
The West always sticks its nose in other peoples affairs without looking at itself.
What did the Europeans do to the American Indians, to the AUS Aborigines , as Colonizers in Africa and Asia??
Read James Bacque, Other Losses- An investigation into the mass deaths of German prisoners at the hands of the French and Americans after World War II. Bacque is a Canadian and he speak of a million men having been annihilated.
Most people know about the Turkish atrocities.
If the Turks can't handle the truth it is their problem.
not know darling I am on the net | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 1:42PM
also convenintly forgotten is the "Malta Tribunals"
"The following article has been prepared based on the British and the United States archives. It proves categorically that the Armenian allegations were heard with great zeal by the British following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, yet all the British efforts to incriminate the Ottoman government proved only the innocence of the Turks."
tallarmeniantale.com
Hey Colin, while you are at it maybe you can do an article what is happening right now:
Israel to Palestininas
US against Aghanistan
Us against Iraq
they all smell like genocide to me oh sorry "bringing Democracy"
all wars effect all people and no doubt all side's paid a horrible price than as tyhey are now.
Get out of the way and let the Turks and Armenian work out their differences as "neighbours".
Hopeful | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 2:10PM
I am yet waiting for an official apology from the Australian government for our part in the invasion of Gallipoli, Vietnam, Iraq etc.
But especially Gallipoli since it has such a historic importance in the character of the nation. Would love to hear how they justify the invasion of a country halfway across the world, which posed no danger to Australia in any shape or form, wasn't on an offensive war, but a defensive one where the foreign powers were invading their land. Since we are harking back to 80 years ago, some commentay would be appreciated. Especially since we sacrificed working class Australians for upper class poms.
nagman - November 09, 2010, 2:30PM
@Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 11:29AM
It's not ignorant and its not bashing. Its called criticism, something which is rare these days, both by the media and alot of commenters.
Kudos for not denying the Armenian genocide, but not for ignoring the lead up to it, the other massacres and the history. There is a pattern.
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 2:37PM
SH, you don't know the first thing about Turkey, or Islam. The only reason you're commenting is to bash Islam. It's disgusting and all too predictable.
Oh, and Turkey absolutely SHOULD be allowed to join the EU, only bigots like you are opposed to it!
Dan - November 09, 2010, 2:40PM
@Dan
A prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU should be an official acknowledgement of the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides, an apology from the head of state, and the payment of reparations.
These should be non-negotiable.
Imagine if Germany denied its holocaust to this day?
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 3:01PM
@Joby
If Turkey joins the E.U. Armenia will be the last thing on the European's mind. Note I said if Turkey joins? it is no longer as attractive for Turkey to join E.U. just ask the Greeks the pendulum is swinging the otherway it more likely the EU will be bending over back wards for the Turks to join them due to their aging population etc.. each day going by makes it less likely that Armenia will get any reparations.
I am affraid there are bigger headaches for the Eurpoeans like how to deport "Roma" and may not be to long before the Turks and Armenians for that matter, to join the deportation que to leave "Fortress Europe".
Wake up | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 3:40PM
The second last paragraph explains the context of this article.
It's less about Turkey's genocide denial, real enough, but about Turkey's falling out of favour with a belligerent Israel that brooks no criticism of its own extended contribution to ethnic cleansing.
evan jones | sydney - November 09, 2010, 3:42PM
Dear Hopeful. Thank you for being a good example of the genocide denialist machine, the type that Prof Tatz alluded to in his article. FYI, there was no such thing as a "Malta Tribunal", rather, there were about 118 Turks detained in Malta after the war to face an inter-allied tribunal which had not been established yet. The inter-allied tribunal was to take place as a requirement of the Sevres Treaty, although signed by Ottoman Turkey in 1920, it was not ratified thanks to the establishment of the Turkish nationalist movement headed by Ataturk. The subsequent release of the "Malta detainees" was a result of a prisoner swap between the British govt and the Turkish nationalists. Many of the 118 detained were also accused of having mistreated the Anzac POWs. Many of the Anzacs in their memoirs and diaries name the Turks who were mistreating them. One of them was Mazlum bey, the commandant at the Afion Karahissar internment camp. Mazlum was detained in Malta and later released.
Daniel | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 4:17PM
Colin Tatz shamelessly distorts the view of history. (edited by moderator) While vast archives spanning over 7 centuries of the Ottoman Empire were classified and opened to scholars for research almost two decades ago, Armenian archives in Erevan, Armenia, and Armenian Revolutionary Federation archives in Boston, USA, still remain closed to this day. With every research the truth is resurfacing. It was the Armenians who massacred the Turks in Eastern Turkey not the other way around. There are many Russian documents stating the same.
Even the first PM of Independant Armenian Republic said "The Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres" (Published by the Armenian Information Service, Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave. New York 22 – 1955).
The facts are, the Armenians resorted to wide scale, bloody uprisings during the First World War, hoping to carve out some Turkish territory when the Ottoman Empire was fighting for its survival. The Armenians sided with invading enemy armies (Russians) in 1914, which made Ottomans lose trust in them. Since it was not possible to distinguish between who betrayed and who didn't, the Ottoman Empire decided to relocate the Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia, which posed a serious threat to Ottoman security and war effort, to non-war zones of the empire, such as Iraq and Syria. This is no different than Australians interning their very few German born citizens during WW1 and Americans interning their Japanese born citizens during WW2.
(edited by moderator)
Umit - November 09, 2010, 5:20PM
@Daniel | Sydney
Dear Daniel, I have not denied simply pointed out that there is more to the story than meets the eye, and why would the Anzacs cover up atrocities inflicted on them by the Turks??
What are our (Anzacs) reasons for covering this up? You say "Many of the Anzacs in their memoirs and diaries name the Turks who were mistreating them" do we have any names of the "ANZACS" that the Aussie historian and RSL can follow up so that the Turks can get their just deserts.
Thank you for confirming that there was indeed a "Malta Tribunal" at least an intention of a tribunal to prosecute those who committed the atrocities... low and behold they are released as you put it prisoner swap – 118 Turks swapped for How many Englishman Daniel?
Was it 1000 English? I would imagine the English having commandeered "Istanbul" would have the upper hand and demand at least 118 prisoners my recollection is that it was only 22 Englishman- the math just does not add up.
Or could it actually be that they came to the realisation they did not have "credible evidence" that would stand up in a court of law. and to save face a prisoner exchange was arranged.
Remember that history is written by the Victor, this certainly puts England and her allies in the camp of the "Victorious" so they could have gotten away with it had they chosen to, darn it must have been that flimsy evidence provided by the Armenians and the Greeks.
Remember "Braker Morant" they shot him didn't they, and he was on their side!
I am with evan jones @ 3:42 pm there seems to be a little bit of pay back here...
I am still hopeful,
Hopeful | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 6:22PM
HOW HORRIBLE!!!!
I was just in Turkey admiring the ancient cities and enjoying the people's hospitality who now live there. I had no idea about this atrocity, have done a fair bit of reading over the past day on this it is absolutely essential Turkey apologise. I was appaled when i read the bit where hitler says 'who remembers the armenians now!' simply atrocious!!!
MAY | Melbourne, Victoria - November 09, 2010, 6:58PM
It's sickening to see this black armband view of Turkey's history. They need somebody like Keith Windschuttle to set things straight!
Bill | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 7:00PM
Dear Umit - I don't understand how an "indigenous" subject people such as the Armenians could have been the perpetrators of genocide against the Turks. It is a fact that the Armenians (being stateless) were a subject people of both the Russians and the Ottoman Turks. Many Armenians fought loyally for the Ottoman Empire during WW1 and they were recognised for their bravery and gallantry at Sarikamish and Gallipoli by Enver Pasha. The Armenians in the Russian Empire fought loyally for Russia. The organised systematic deportation and massacre of the Armenian civil population (mainly women and children sent to the Syrian Desert) was calculated to change the demography of the Ottoman Empire so that it will be exclusively Turkish/Moslem. That is why there are no Armenians/Assyrians left in their historic provinces of Eastern Turkey and it's why their Christian cultural monuments which pre-date the Turkic/Moslem invasions are being converted to Mosques or have been destroyed. Your comparison of the internment of Germans by Australians etc is an insult to the intelligence of anyone who has even made a superficial study of the historical event. Raphael Lemkin, the man who coined the word genocide in 1944, used the Armenian massacres as an example of what the word meant. Hitler used it as a justification for the Holocaust. Your post is a good example of the "convulsive and reflexive" response by the denialist machine that Prof Tatz highlighted.
Kylie | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 8:26PM
The past of every nation contains crimes both great and small. It takes a big man to admit fault and perhaps Turkey has no big men. It's time for Turkey to come to grips with its past if it is to embrace its future.
peter s | sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:11PM
The article above is another reason why we haven't moved forward since the crusades. I am the grandson of Armenian and Turkish grandparents; needless to say the so called "Armenian Genocide" plays an important part in my life.
To put it simply, from the very words of my Armenian grandmother, there was a civil war, and many people died, large masses of MUSLIMS and Christians died needlessly on both sides over land.
The Turks on this matter are ready to move forward as long as there is appropriate research; the Prime Minister has come out and said that a joint research team by Armenian, Turkish and third party governments is warranted, and upon conclusion Turkey is ready to accept any monetary responsibility.
Let's not forget, Turkey (for its independence) did go to war with the majority of the countries which accept the genocide; this is going to contribute to them not outright accepting the genocide no questions asked.
It's a shame that that the Gallipoli spirit is being tarnished by these sought of ugly allegations, which only bread contempt and have no part in Australian life. Demeaning the braveries of Gallipoli for your own agenda is disrespectful and outright cowardly. One of the very few examples of gallantry on the battlefield was shown, and some communities are trying to destroy the very fabrics of Australian society.
I am truly disappointed that The Age a respected source of news is allowing for Islamophobia to flourish in its bulletins.
Gold Collar Australian - November 10, 2010, 1:06AM
I sincerely thank Prof. Tatz for writing this powerful article, yet he is wrong in suggesting that a formal apology "leavened by a limitation on reparations" would be "a way forward."
Such a token measure would in fact LEGITIMIZE and ADVANCE the genocidal acts of successive Turkish regimes!
The "way forward" begins with Turkey finally ending the century-long Armenian Genocide, issuing a complete apology, returning Western Armenia and Cilicia to the Armenian nation and people, providing billions in reparations and restitution and fully abandoning its racist anti-Armenian, anti-minority ideology and policies.
Markos - November 10, 2010, 1:39AM
2
Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book 'Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore' was also another chief denier. Because, in his book which is banned in Armenia at present, he stated that
*it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
*They were unconditionally allied with Russia,
*They massacred the Moslem population,
*The Armenian terrorist acts were directed, at winning the Western public opinion.
*British occupation aroused hopes of the Dashnaks,
*They were provoked by imperial Sea to Sea land demand,
*They had not taken into consideration Turkey's power,
* They should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on making war
(KS Papazian the writer of 'Patriotism Perverted' published in 1934, in Boston, also confirms this Turkish suggestion. Note that 'Patrionism Perverted' is banned in Armenia).
*The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks.
*Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*Their government was a Dashnak dictatorship.
*The fault was within the Dashnak Party. They should commit suicide. They had nothing to do.
Vratsyan, the last prime minister of Dashnaks who wrote in an article published in December 3 1920 issue of Araç, that they transformed Armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the Entente Powers (RGASPİ fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of Turkish government.
fehmi - November 10, 2010, 3:38AM
New generations may not be aware of these facts. However, their parents and the Armenian authorities are aware of all these fact very well. Remember that in 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) composed of Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians abondened the project refusing to continue to fulfil their commitments
(I. Press Release 11.1.2005 Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform – VAT
The Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform deeply regrets to announce that she will not carry through her starting initiative „The First Viennese Armenian-Turkish Round Table" (FVATR Vienna 2005) originally planned for spring 2005. The reason is that the Armenian partner has not provided us with the necessary confirmation as agreed in August 2004.......On the other hand, the Turkish partner accepted already to participate in the dialogue, in which each part was supposed to present 180 documents on the year 1915 showing their understanding of this delicate matter. http://www.turkishdigest.com/documents/VATpressrelase.pdf)
Also, beware that the parliaments who recognized your genocide thesis, did so, depending on the vote of the Armenians not on the historical documents which were presented them by the Armenians.
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:20AM
According to Caleb F Gates, president of Robert College, the Armenian population statistics in January 1921, as confirmed by the Armenian Patriarchate was as follows: Armenians in Ottoman provinces approximetely 600 000; Armenians alive 944 900; Armenian total loss 355 000. (FO 371/6556/E 2730: Gates to Rumbold, 16.2.1921, giving the statistics of the Armenians then living in Turkey, obtained from the Armenian Patriarch). In the light of these statistics, how can the loss of about 400 000 Armenians be labelled as 'massacres, genocide, or proto-Holocaust' and the loss of over one million Muslims, as a result of Armenian activities, is not even mentioned? What kind of a holocoust is it that the aggressive side suffered much more losses than the attacked side? (From: Sonyel Salahi. The Great War and The Tragedy of Anatolia. TTK, 2000, pp.170-182)
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:22AM
Tatz, i was wondering if you ever read or heard about armenians first pms confessions about the issue! let me help you:
'... The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win... Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions ; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. ...In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. ..... the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers ; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. ....the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres...'
Source: The 1923 Bucharest Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first PM of the Independent Armenian Republic, published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22 – 1955.
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:29AM
There has been no kind of court decision about what the Armenians call a 'genocide' nor has the Armenians ever applied to any court.
Moreover, International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, the Armenian allegation of genocide lacks evidence and legal support.
Have you ever wondered;
Why are they afraid of simply applying to the International Court of Justice instead of spending huge amounts of money to make the propaganda of their thesis?
Why are they afraid of discussing their thesis in historical joint commissions?
Why did they not open their archives up till now, while the Turkish archives are open?
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:31AM
"...During WWI, the Russians invaded the Caucasus, and with the help of local Armenians, they have chased Turks and Jews, killed whoever they could catch, and then pillaged and plundered Turkish and Jewish villages. He was about 10 years old and my father-in-law was only 3 and he said there is no way he could forget that exodus, that fleeing. Turks and Jews brought with them to Anatolia whatever they could pack with them. Jewish families first went to Van (a city by the lake Van in Eastern Anatolia). While some Jewish families settled there, others continued their travel to settle in Adana and other places, and still others went as far as Palestine. What I am trying to my Armenian friends is this: everything has a prior history. If the Armenian attack and kill Turks, Turks, in their quest to avenge those Armenian atrocities, may have caused massacres in their counter attacks and chases. Aren't these 'eye for an eye' feuds conventional and normal under the conditions of those days? In contrast, what the Germans did to 6 million Jews cannot be explained by such feuds, chases, or civil wars; there was absolutely no reason for the Holocaust. I never quite understood how the Armenians want to be included in the same category as the Jews of Holocaust. Momo Asafrana, December 09, 2004
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:37AM
Dear Hopeful
I repeat, there was no such thing as a "Malta Tribunal". There were Turks accused of War Crimes detained in Malta from 1919 pending the establishment of an inter-allied tribunal which unfortunately never eventuated because of the political changes which occcured in the Near East, and NOT because they were innocent. They were exchanged for 22 British prisoners (including Colonel Rawlinson) held by the Turkish (Kemalist) Nationalists in Erzerum. The decision of the British government to release the Turks was, as Australian Geoffrey Robertson QC recently observed, for reasons of "political expediency" resulting from the disunity of the European powers towards the defeated Ottoman Empire. As for the Turks held in Malta accused of the mistreatment of the Anzac POWs during WW1, there names can be found in the report titled "First and Second Interim Reports from the Committee of Enquiry into the Breaches of the Laws of War" January 1919, British National Archives ref. no. CAB/24/85. I will list some of the names of the Turks in my next post. The report includes the details of their crimes including the names of the British and Anzac POWs who were witnesses.
Daniel | Sydney - November 10, 2010, 9:16AM
The following is a list of some of the Turks who were detained in Malta for the mistreatment of the British and Anzac POWs in Turkey during WW1. The complete list is available in British National Archives doc. no. CAB/24/127.
Prisoner no. 2679 Mehmed Tewfik Bey
Prisoner no. 2680 Ahmed Tewfik Bey
Prisoner no. 2694 Djemal Eff Abdul
Prisoner no. 2707 Mazlum Bey Edib
Prisoner no. 2708 Haidar Bey Ahmed
Prisoner no. 2709 Sahmy Bey Ahmed
Prisoner no. 2710 Hakky Bey Ibrahim
Prisoner no. 2745 Tahir Bey
For excample, Mazlum Bey, the commandant of the Afion Karahissar internment camp is described in the report as follows: "a ferocious brute" and accused of "theft and sodomitical practices", "repeatedly flogged the prisoners", "callously indifferent to the condition of the prisoners ... 200 prisoners died within 6 weeks ... British medical officers were not allowed to attend to the medical needs ... etc etc.
Daniel | Sydney - November 10, 2010, 9:36AM
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/denial-of-an-ugly-past-is-holding-turkey-back-20101108-17k8f.html
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Steve Hogan has left a new comment at 5.3.2013:
Unfortunately, Prof. Colin Tatz is a crook. The evidence & documents leave little room to dispute the lobbyist professor's financial dealings with the Greek and Armenian diaspora in Australia... www.armeniangenocidelies.com/2012/11/15/colin-tatz-panayiotis-diamadis-armenian-greek-lobby-australia/
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