DecisionRespecting

  • Subscribe to our RSS feed.
  • Twitter
  • StumbleUpon
  • Reddit
  • Facebook
  • Digg

Sunday, November 14, 2010

3169) From Berlin To Bagdad And Babylon By John Augustine Zahm - Free E-Book

Posted on 8:19 PM by Unknown
Zahm © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com
Related post: An Honest Clergyman On The Armenians
The author of the passage below is identified as "Rev. J. A. Zahm [John Augustine Zahm], C.S.C., Ph.D., LL.D. (H.J. Mozans)"; in his book, he described himself as a student, not a tourist, when he undertook his travels. The Catholic Encyclopedia identified Zahm as an "author of scientific works and professor of physics." He became a center of controversy in the Catholic world, for his courage and honesty, and for writing books such as Evolution and Dogma. He also championed women... bravo! The following excerpt is from the reverend's book, "From Berlin to Bagdad and Babylon," D. Appleton and Co., 1922, pp. 210-213.

Armenians as "Political Mischief Makers"

Still again the hue and cry was raised in Europe and America that the soulless Turk, always the Turk, only the Turk, was the guilty one. Armenian agitators, Armenian jacks-in-office, Armenian revolutionary committees provoking the Turks to retaliate on their offenders in order to force the intervention of the Great powers[19]. These political mischief makers go scot-free while the ever vilified Osmanli is pilloried before the world as a monster of iniquity and a demon incarnate
. . .



From Berlin To Bagdad And Babylon By John Augustine Zahm Part I






From Berlin To Bagdad And Babylon By John Augustine Zahm Part II



John A. Zahm, C.S.C.


John Augustine Zahm was born on June 11, 1851 in New Lexington, Ohio, where he began his formal education in a one-room log schoolhouse. His mother was a grandniece of Major General Edward Braddock, military instructor of George Washington. With roots struck deep in American soil, Zahm would later distinguish himself in the company of James Cardinal Gibbons and Archbishops John Ireland and John J. Keane as an Americanist, an enthusiast in the cause of Americanizing the Catholic Church in the United States.

Yet Zahm never excluded the Old World from his vision for the New. From an early age he devoted himself to studying the classics. When he came to Notre Dame in 1867, he enrolled in the Classical Course, the normal formation for aspiring priests.

Most people, however, knew Zahm as a scientist. At Notre Dame Zahm came under the influence of Joseph Carrier, C.S.C., who was Director of the Science Museum and the Library and Professor of Chemistry and Physics. Carrier showed Zahm that scientific research and its promise for progress were not antagonistic to the ideals of intellectual and moral culture endorsed by the Church. Zahm graduated and entered the novitiate of the Congregatio a Sancta Cruce (Congregation of Holy Cross) in 1871. The next fall Carrier took Zahm on as his associate and assigned him the duties of Curator of the Museum, Librarian, and Assistant in Chemistry, Physics and Natural Sciences. When Carrier left Notre Dame three years later, Zahm was made Professor and Co-Director of the Science Department. That same year, on June 4, 1875, he was ordained to the priesthood--a ripe 23 years of age.

Zahm expanded the science department and museum at Notre Dame. He purchased the latest equipment and used it to great effect in lecture demonstrations. He spent the summers travelling throughout the United States and Europe, recruiting students and taking note of recent inventions. In 1884, thanks to Zahm's aggressive campaigning, the University built a modernly equipped Science Building. Still greater responsibilities came the following year, when on top of all his other duties he was named University Vice President.

In 1892, Andrew Morrissey, C.S.C., replaced Zahm as Vice President, leaving him freer to lecture and to write. That year his first book, Sound and Musicappeared in print. It would be his only work in physics. His subsequent publications took up a different theme: the relation of science and religion.

Zahm in Rome Zahm in Study Zahm & Roosevelt

During the next four years, Zahm participated in the emerging Catholic Summer School movement, which aimed to introduce Catholic laity to contemporary intellectual issues. His stunning lectures, for which he was dubbed the "St. George Mivart of America," brought him national fame. Zahm compiled his notes into book form and published them under the title Evolution and Dogma in 1896. In the volume, Zahm defended certain aspects of evolutionary theory as true, and argued, moreover, that even the great Church teachers Thomas Aquinas and Augustine taught the theory in germ.

In April, 1896, the Congregation of Holy Cross needed a new Procurator General in Rome, and Zahm was the preferred choice. His keen interest in Dante would develop during these years abroad.

Zahm's first act as Procurator was to secure approval for the proposed Holy Cross College in Washington, D.C., a new Catholic center for higher learning that he invested with great personal devotion. If Notre Dame would revert to its origins as a boarding school under Morrissey, who had succeeded to its presidency in 1893, then Zahm could at least pursue his educational crusade through Holy Cross College.

A progressive Pope Leo XIII had awarded Zahm the degree of Doctor Philosophy in 1895 to encourage his work as a Christian scientist (Photo of Zahm in Rome, 1895). But that was before the publication of Evolution and Dogma and the appointment to Rome. Now Zahm faced opposition and possible censure by the Holy See. Only the politically astute interventions of well placed American clergy, most notably Denis O'Connell, spared Zahm and his order humiliation.

The timing of the rescue was crucial, for at the height of conflict Zahm was recalled to Notre Dame to serve as the Holy Cross Provincial for the United States. As Provincial, Zahm tried once again to transform Notre Dame into a great university like Heidelberg or Bologna. He erected buildings and added to the campus art gallery and library. During these years he purchased about 200 volumes a year on Dante, amassing a significant collection which included most of the Renaissance editions.

In 1906, however, these opportunities came to an end. Fr. Morrissey successfully campaigned against Zahm's renewal as Provincial, arguing that he had tried to expand Notre Dame too quickly and had run the order into serious debt.

Zahm was crushed. But after a few months he resumed writing and travelling. He displayed an appetite for adventure, and if there were a single epithet that could sum up his activities during the last several years of his life it would have to be explorer. Zahm's book titles document his itineraries: Up the Orinoco and Down the Magdelena, Along the Andes and Down the Amazon. The travel monographs, all concerning South America, were published under the pen name H. J. Mozans, an a pseudonym derivved from the way he signed his name as a youth: Jno. S. (Stanislaus, an abandoned middle name) Zahm.

The author's identity was not long hidden, and some knew the secret all along. Theodore Roosevelt was one of the insiders. Roosevelt knew Zahm from his days in the White House. Their shared love for Dante formed the first basis of their friendship; now South America became their primary topic of discussion. In 1913, Zahm and the Colonel embarked on a major expedition through the interior of the continent. Zahm had hoped to return home to take, in his own words, an honored place among the great missionary explorers, but hardship and danger cut short the journey (Photo of Zahm and Roosevelt).

Zahm returned to Holy Cross College to write. His last projects included two volumes designed to appeal to women. Woman in Science which he sent to press prior to his 1913 expedition, depicted the historical struggle of women to advance intellectually. In 1917, Great Inspirers appeared. In more temperate tones it sketched the lives of four women who inspired St. Jerome and Dante. Two more books were planned: an historical and archaeological study of the Holy Land for biblical scholars and a definitive life of Dante for English speakers. Zahm died in 1921 on route to the Middle East. His manuscripts for the book From Berlin to Baghdad and Babylon were assembled and published posthumously. The Dante biography was never begun.

Cool yet persuasive, sober minded and scrupulously pious, John Zahm was a man of many and varied ambitions, most of which eluded his grasp. But grasp he always did. .
Read More
Posted in Free E-Books | No comments

Saturday, November 13, 2010

3168) Reply To Denial Of An Ugly Past Is Holding Turkey Back

Posted on 8:31 AM by Unknown
© This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com Denial Of An Ugly Past Is Holding Turkey Back by Colin Tatz
November 8, 2010, Sydney Morning Herald/ “National Times”

The idea that Australia was born as a nation on Gallipoli's shores is now deeply cemented in our history books and national psyche. We are about to see the annual holding of hands by the former combatants on Armistice Day, when thousands will visit the "sacred site". Turks and Australians will join in understandable commemoration but less comprehensible celebration; and friendship societies will become tearful and lyrical during this anniversary of the shedding of brotherly blood. . .

But intruding on this mourning ritual is the growing world recognition of the Ottoman (and, later, Kemalist) Turkish genocide committed between 1915 and 1922. Some 26 nation states and more than 50 regional governments, including NSW and South Australia, formally recognise the Turkish attempts to annihilate 3 million Armenians and possibly 1 million Pontian Greeks and Christian Assyrians. At least 1.5 million Armenians were killed by bayoneting, beheading, bullets, butchering, crucifixion, drowning, elementary gas chambers, forced death marches, hanging, hot horseshoes, medical experiments, and other unprintable atrocities... .


Open Reply By Sukru Aya To Colin Tatz On Denial Of An Ugly Past Is Holding Turkey Back










Above Reply Has Been Sent to Professor Colin Tatz ( colintatz at gmail dot com & colin dot tatz at anu dot edu dot au )
We'll publish his response as soon as we receive any from him
Site Editors



Turkish Ambassador to Australia Oguz Ozge responds to Professor Tatz
November 16, 2010

What really happened to Armenians living under the Ottoman Empire in 1915, during the First World War is a matter of controversy. Armenian diaspora claims that the events of 1915 come within the realms of "genocide", whereas Turks argue that in no way can those events be considered as such. Until the events of 1915 are legally determined by a competent international court under the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide or the Armenians and Turks come to a reconciliation over the controversy, the issue will remain a contentious one.

In a recent National Times article Professor Colin Tatz apparently sides with the Armenian diaspora against Turkey as far as the events of 1915 are concerned. I do not intend responding to all the spurious arguments by Professor Tatz except for getting one important fact right. Professor Tatz's claim that "some 26 nation states and more than 50 regional governments, including NSW and South Australia, 'formally recognise the Turkish attempts to annihilate . . ." is misleading. It is a fact that 21 national parliaments and some regional assemblies have so far adopted resolutions favouring the Armenian arguments. The resolutions by legislative bodies are of a political nature and not binding on the governments. Consequently the claim of "formal recognition" by national states is not true and no single government has so far done so. Under what circumstances of wheeling and dealing those resolutions are passed in parliaments need not be elaborated here.

We are convinced that the events of 1915 are not a matter for legislators to consider because we take "genocide" very seriously. That is why we believe that historians from Turkey, Armenia and third countries should come together to ascertain the facts.

Last but not least, I wish to point out that in the past few years new claims have emerged whereby Greeks and Assyrians were also included in the list of victims by the Ottoman Empire. The scope of the so-called "genocide" list has now been further extended so as to cover the Christian population living under the Ottoman Empire. As an extension of that line of thinking it would have been misleading to exclude Anzac soldiers from such list, if the Christians had fallen victim to the so-called "genocide". That is why a number of persons have very recently started alleging that Anzac prisoners of war were subjected to ill-treatment in camps around Gallipoli. We should not let those ill-founded arguments damage the long relationship that has been forged between Australia and Turkey out of adversity in Gallipoli.


Open Letter to SMH/National Times of Australia on Prof Colin Tatz
17 November 2010
Dear Editor,

Prof. Colin Tatz, a visiting fellow at Australian National University, like many others who write about the Armenian issue with a totally biased view and to further their own agenda, has made many erroneous statements in his recent article, ‘’Denial of an ugly past is holding Turkey back’’, (Nov 8, 2010.) First of all, Turkey is already a modern democratic society and the fact that Turkey has played a role in the establishment of Australia as a nation at Gallipoli’s shores is accepted by many Australians and others. This is being demonstrated at an exhibition in Ankara, focusing on Ataturk and the Gallipoli Campaign, as part of a 10 year program to celebrate this affirmation on the 100th anniversary of this in 2015.

Second, Tatz ignores the fact that the Armenian issue was created by the west in order to break up the Ottoman Empire which harmed both the Armenians and the Turks. It is not only the Turks, as Turkish Amb. Oguz Ozge, stated in his letter to the Times, (Nov. 16, 2010) object to the labeling of massacres as genocide, since many Armenian Turks, foreign academicians and students in many countries, such as Prof. Justin McCharty, in America, many university students such as Maxime Gaugin in France, and others, have expressed views which support the Turkish thesis.

The enlightenment of Armenians along with other minorities in Turkey began with the establishment of schools by the Missioners all over the Ottoman Empire where the education was minimal. It is a fact that many Armenians educated at these institutions migrated to Europe and America and came back to fight with the rebellious Armenians who only wanted to establish an Armenian state on lands where they were not the majority, which the West promised them.

The Armenians and foreigners who support the genocide claim base this on several books published as either war propaganda or anti-Turkish material. Among these are Toynbee’s shameless ‘’Blue Book’’ and US Amb Morgenthau’s ‘’Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’’, Both, although translated into Turkish, have been proved to be written based on fabricated, false and forged documents and hear-say, especially those invented by some Christian missionaries to bad-mouth the Moslems. The resolutions passed by 26 nation states and 50 regional governments (and countless NGOs that Tatz does not mention) are as a result of support received from the Armenians for various reasons and not the nationals of each country and the influence of the above books and many others like them..

Third, the Armenians in Australia and all over the world should should start looking at the Armenian issue with an open mind and recognize the fact that the Armenians revolted and massacred many Turks going back to the 19th century. These have been all documented in many books and articles, which Tatz seems to ignore. Turks retaliated and massacred Armenians. Armenian rebels attacked Turkish villages while the men were fighting in four corners of the empire and were in the army. Many Armenians joined the Russian forces during the First World War, well over 150,00, and fought against their own government. The Ottomans were forced to re-locate the Armenians due to war conditions. Many returned and joined the French forces during the occupation of Clicia after the First World War and fought against the Turks. And of course, many Armenians in İstanbul, Kayseri and other cities continued with their lives, which is not mentioned by Tatz.

Finally, I would like to make a proposal to all concerned Armenians and Turks and to all NGOs, including the Hrant Dink Foundation, to begin the preparation of a parade across Turkey to commemorate the death of both the Turks and the Armenians before, during and after the First World War, together in 2015, and perhaps together with the Australians. We should stop writing endless articles on a subject that is not fully known according to the experts and politicized and get together to work on building friendship, as some are already doing. Perhaps we can call the parade, ‘’The Parade for Friendship and Peace’’, which can take place in major cities across Turkey and on to Baku and Erivan. Once the friendship is established, than everyone can talk about the issues and help each other to reconcile the differences as friends and not enemies. As ‘’Hopeful’’ commented on the article on Nov 9, ‘’The foreigners should get out of the away and let the Turks and Armenians work out their differences as ‘’neighbors.’’

Yüksel Oktay
İstanbul


Comments


For too long, Australia has brushed over the genocidal past and genocide-denying present of Turkey, a country that continues its relentless pressure to ethnically cleanse the country of all non-Islamic communities and, in the process, lose the heterogenous mix of communities and faiths that made the MIddle East the origin of the world's faiths. Every pressure should be put on the Turkish government to join the rest of the world and recognise its genocidal past.
Robert M Kaplan - November 09, 2010, 8:04AM

Thank you Professor Tatz for such an enlightening article. What most Australians don't know is that following the Great War, Turkish leaders were arrested and found guilty of the mistreatment of the Allied and Anzac POWs. The fate of the Anzac POWs in Turkey was just as tragic as their counterparts in Japan during WW2. But current Australian WW1 historiography is focused on romanticising the Gallipoli battle in order to bring it into line with the current strong economic ties between Turkey and Australia. However, the truth of the Armenian Genocide and the mistreatment of the Anzac POWs has been conveniently erased from the public's collective memory of Gallipoli. Australian Anzac, Sir Thomas White, was one such POW who wrote his experiences in Turkey in a book called "Guests of the Unspeakable "(1928). He documents the atrocious treatment of Anzac POWs as well as the systematic murder of the Armenian people.
Daniel | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 8:08AM

You had me until that little relativistic nugget at the end equating the accidental and partially designed frontier wars of colonisation with the Christian genocides in Turkey.

You also seem to advocate Turkey's entry into the EU. Pigs might fly as well - you'll have revolution across Europe before that happens.

Unfortunately, under the AKP party and the dismantling of Turkey's 'guided democracy' under the Kemalists, this nation is reverting back to previous norms observed during the long Ottoman empire.

..and under this Ottoman empire, the Christian minorities were tolerated under a dhimmi covenant, whereby if they protested their treatment or rebelled against their secondary class, they were liable for pograms and wholesale slaughter.
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 8:31AM

It is heartening to finally hear a western journalists openly discuss this shameful cover up by the Turkish government. The irony is that the the founder of modern Turkey, Kemal Ataturk, was quite honest and open about the genocide. It was only later that the curtains came down.
Western states have often colluded with Turkey's holocaust denial out of cynical self interest. And Muslim governments, addicted to a narrative of Muslim victimhood at the hands of the West, are loathe to acknowledge what is a historical fact.
Even in Australia, we have mealy mouthed diplomats and cultural relativists, who use terms like "alleged genocide" or "mass murder" out of a misguided desire to not offend elements within the Australian Turkish community.
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 9:32AM

This article misses a number of important facts that are essential to understanding the issue at hand – for one, why not mention that Armenians were trained and armed to the teeth by brotherly Christian Russia? Why not mention that Armenians managed to completely exterminate large Turkish/Kurdish populations a case in point being the city of Van?

There is no doubt that Armenians suffered terribly in WW1, but many others suffered terribly at their hands as well. People need to move on with their life instead of constantly reliving an event that happened 100 years ago.

The worst thing about this whole "article" is that by the end if basically implies that Turks are not "decent" people. How shameful, how disrespectful, how bluntly rude!

There are many other news outlets where biased propaganda can be written.
Australian | North Sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:38AM

@Australian | North Sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:38AM

Just admit it. When the French, British, Russians etc started to gain power in parts of the Levant/ME/Balkans, they put pressure on a weakened Ottoman Empire to stop their periodic massacres of the area's Christians. (Bulgaria, Lebanon eg)

Some Christian minorities took heart, organised and protested their dhimmi status. They then got jihad as per the Pact of Omar. They still do...
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 10:01AM

@ Australian
People cannot "move on" until the Turkish government acknowledges what happened and apologizes.
@SH
Please don't use this article as an excuse to engage in more ignorant Muslim bashing.
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 11:29AM

The turks have to admit for the genocide and compensate the Armenians including some land. Mt Arrarat which is the symbol of Armennia is few hundred kms from the border.

Returning the Konstantinopol and the surrounding area to Greece is the obvious next step.
Pamuk - November 09, 2010, 1:32PM

Which country is totally clean in all respects.

The West always sticks its nose in other peoples affairs without looking at itself.

What did the Europeans do to the American Indians, to the AUS Aborigines , as Colonizers in Africa and Asia??

Read James Bacque, Other Losses- An investigation into the mass deaths of German prisoners at the hands of the French and Americans after World War II. Bacque is a Canadian and he speak of a million men having been annihilated.

Most people know about the Turkish atrocities.

If the Turks can't handle the truth it is their problem.
not know darling I am on the net | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 1:42PM

also convenintly forgotten is the "Malta Tribunals"
"The following article has been prepared based on the British and the United States archives. It proves categorically that the Armenian allegations were heard with great zeal by the British following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire, yet all the British efforts to incriminate the Ottoman government proved only the innocence of the Turks."
tallarmeniantale.com

Hey Colin, while you are at it maybe you can do an article what is happening right now:
Israel to Palestininas
US against Aghanistan
Us against Iraq
they all smell like genocide to me oh sorry "bringing Democracy"

all wars effect all people and no doubt all side's paid a horrible price than as tyhey are now.

Get out of the way and let the Turks and Armenian work out their differences as "neighbours".
Hopeful | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 2:10PM

I am yet waiting for an official apology from the Australian government for our part in the invasion of Gallipoli, Vietnam, Iraq etc.
But especially Gallipoli since it has such a historic importance in the character of the nation. Would love to hear how they justify the invasion of a country halfway across the world, which posed no danger to Australia in any shape or form, wasn't on an offensive war, but a defensive one where the foreign powers were invading their land. Since we are harking back to 80 years ago, some commentay would be appreciated. Especially since we sacrificed working class Australians for upper class poms.
nagman - November 09, 2010, 2:30PM

@Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 11:29AM

It's not ignorant and its not bashing. Its called criticism, something which is rare these days, both by the media and alot of commenters.

Kudos for not denying the Armenian genocide, but not for ignoring the lead up to it, the other massacres and the history. There is a pattern.
SH | .... - November 09, 2010, 2:37PM

SH, you don't know the first thing about Turkey, or Islam. The only reason you're commenting is to bash Islam. It's disgusting and all too predictable.

Oh, and Turkey absolutely SHOULD be allowed to join the EU, only bigots like you are opposed to it!
Dan - November 09, 2010, 2:40PM

@Dan
A prerequisite for Turkey joining the EU should be an official acknowledgement of the Armenian, Assyrian and Greek genocides, an apology from the head of state, and the payment of reparations.
These should be non-negotiable.
Imagine if Germany denied its holocaust to this day?
Joby | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 3:01PM

@Joby
If Turkey joins the E.U. Armenia will be the last thing on the European's mind. Note I said if Turkey joins? it is no longer as attractive for Turkey to join E.U. just ask the Greeks the pendulum is swinging the otherway it more likely the EU will be bending over back wards for the Turks to join them due to their aging population etc.. each day going by makes it less likely that Armenia will get any reparations.

I am affraid there are bigger headaches for the Eurpoeans like how to deport "Roma" and may not be to long before the Turks and Armenians for that matter, to join the deportation que to leave "Fortress Europe".
Wake up | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 3:40PM

The second last paragraph explains the context of this article.
It's less about Turkey's genocide denial, real enough, but about Turkey's falling out of favour with a belligerent Israel that brooks no criticism of its own extended contribution to ethnic cleansing.
evan jones | sydney - November 09, 2010, 3:42PM

Dear Hopeful. Thank you for being a good example of the genocide denialist machine, the type that Prof Tatz alluded to in his article. FYI, there was no such thing as a "Malta Tribunal", rather, there were about 118 Turks detained in Malta after the war to face an inter-allied tribunal which had not been established yet. The inter-allied tribunal was to take place as a requirement of the Sevres Treaty, although signed by Ottoman Turkey in 1920, it was not ratified thanks to the establishment of the Turkish nationalist movement headed by Ataturk. The subsequent release of the "Malta detainees" was a result of a prisoner swap between the British govt and the Turkish nationalists. Many of the 118 detained were also accused of having mistreated the Anzac POWs. Many of the Anzacs in their memoirs and diaries name the Turks who were mistreating them. One of them was Mazlum bey, the commandant at the Afion Karahissar internment camp. Mazlum was detained in Malta and later released.
Daniel | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 4:17PM

Colin Tatz shamelessly distorts the view of history. (edited by moderator) While vast archives spanning over 7 centuries of the Ottoman Empire were classified and opened to scholars for research almost two decades ago, Armenian archives in Erevan, Armenia, and Armenian Revolutionary Federation archives in Boston, USA, still remain closed to this day. With every research the truth is resurfacing. It was the Armenians who massacred the Turks in Eastern Turkey not the other way around. There are many Russian documents stating the same.

Even the first PM of Independant Armenian Republic said "The Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres" (Published by the Armenian Information Service, Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave. New York 22 – 1955).

The facts are, the Armenians resorted to wide scale, bloody uprisings during the First World War, hoping to carve out some Turkish territory when the Ottoman Empire was fighting for its survival. The Armenians sided with invading enemy armies (Russians) in 1914, which made Ottomans lose trust in them. Since it was not possible to distinguish between who betrayed and who didn't, the Ottoman Empire decided to relocate the Armenian population of Eastern Anatolia, which posed a serious threat to Ottoman security and war effort, to non-war zones of the empire, such as Iraq and Syria. This is no different than Australians interning their very few German born citizens during WW1 and Americans interning their Japanese born citizens during WW2.

(edited by moderator)
Umit - November 09, 2010, 5:20PM

@Daniel | Sydney

Dear Daniel, I have not denied simply pointed out that there is more to the story than meets the eye, and why would the Anzacs cover up atrocities inflicted on them by the Turks??

What are our (Anzacs) reasons for covering this up? You say "Many of the Anzacs in their memoirs and diaries name the Turks who were mistreating them" do we have any names of the "ANZACS" that the Aussie historian and RSL can follow up so that the Turks can get their just deserts.

Thank you for confirming that there was indeed a "Malta Tribunal" at least an intention of a tribunal to prosecute those who committed the atrocities... low and behold they are released as you put it prisoner swap – 118 Turks swapped for How many Englishman Daniel?

Was it 1000 English? I would imagine the English having commandeered "Istanbul" would have the upper hand and demand at least 118 prisoners my recollection is that it was only 22 Englishman- the math just does not add up.

Or could it actually be that they came to the realisation they did not have "credible evidence" that would stand up in a court of law. and to save face a prisoner exchange was arranged.

Remember that history is written by the Victor, this certainly puts England and her allies in the camp of the "Victorious" so they could have gotten away with it had they chosen to, darn it must have been that flimsy evidence provided by the Armenians and the Greeks.

Remember "Braker Morant" they shot him didn't they, and he was on their side!

I am with evan jones @ 3:42 pm there seems to be a little bit of pay back here...

I am still hopeful,
Hopeful | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 6:22PM

HOW HORRIBLE!!!!
I was just in Turkey admiring the ancient cities and enjoying the people's hospitality who now live there. I had no idea about this atrocity, have done a fair bit of reading over the past day on this it is absolutely essential Turkey apologise. I was appaled when i read the bit where hitler says 'who remembers the armenians now!' simply atrocious!!!
MAY | Melbourne, Victoria - November 09, 2010, 6:58PM

It's sickening to see this black armband view of Turkey's history. They need somebody like Keith Windschuttle to set things straight!
Bill | Melbourne - November 09, 2010, 7:00PM

Dear Umit - I don't understand how an "indigenous" subject people such as the Armenians could have been the perpetrators of genocide against the Turks. It is a fact that the Armenians (being stateless) were a subject people of both the Russians and the Ottoman Turks. Many Armenians fought loyally for the Ottoman Empire during WW1 and they were recognised for their bravery and gallantry at Sarikamish and Gallipoli by Enver Pasha. The Armenians in the Russian Empire fought loyally for Russia. The organised systematic deportation and massacre of the Armenian civil population (mainly women and children sent to the Syrian Desert) was calculated to change the demography of the Ottoman Empire so that it will be exclusively Turkish/Moslem. That is why there are no Armenians/Assyrians left in their historic provinces of Eastern Turkey and it's why their Christian cultural monuments which pre-date the Turkic/Moslem invasions are being converted to Mosques or have been destroyed. Your comparison of the internment of Germans by Australians etc is an insult to the intelligence of anyone who has even made a superficial study of the historical event. Raphael Lemkin, the man who coined the word genocide in 1944, used the Armenian massacres as an example of what the word meant. Hitler used it as a justification for the Holocaust. Your post is a good example of the "convulsive and reflexive" response by the denialist machine that Prof Tatz highlighted.
Kylie | Sydney - November 09, 2010, 8:26PM

The past of every nation contains crimes both great and small. It takes a big man to admit fault and perhaps Turkey has no big men. It's time for Turkey to come to grips with its past if it is to embrace its future.
peter s | sydney - November 09, 2010, 9:11PM

The article above is another reason why we haven't moved forward since the crusades. I am the grandson of Armenian and Turkish grandparents; needless to say the so called "Armenian Genocide" plays an important part in my life.

To put it simply, from the very words of my Armenian grandmother, there was a civil war, and many people died, large masses of MUSLIMS and Christians died needlessly on both sides over land.

The Turks on this matter are ready to move forward as long as there is appropriate research; the Prime Minister has come out and said that a joint research team by Armenian, Turkish and third party governments is warranted, and upon conclusion Turkey is ready to accept any monetary responsibility.

Let's not forget, Turkey (for its independence) did go to war with the majority of the countries which accept the genocide; this is going to contribute to them not outright accepting the genocide no questions asked.

It's a shame that that the Gallipoli spirit is being tarnished by these sought of ugly allegations, which only bread contempt and have no part in Australian life. Demeaning the braveries of Gallipoli for your own agenda is disrespectful and outright cowardly. One of the very few examples of gallantry on the battlefield was shown, and some communities are trying to destroy the very fabrics of Australian society.

I am truly disappointed that The Age a respected source of news is allowing for Islamophobia to flourish in its bulletins.
Gold Collar Australian - November 10, 2010, 1:06AM

I sincerely thank Prof. Tatz for writing this powerful article, yet he is wrong in suggesting that a formal apology "leavened by a limitation on reparations" would be "a way forward."

Such a token measure would in fact LEGITIMIZE and ADVANCE the genocidal acts of successive Turkish regimes!

The "way forward" begins with Turkey finally ending the century-long Armenian Genocide, issuing a complete apology, returning Western Armenia and Cilicia to the Armenian nation and people, providing billions in reparations and restitution and fully abandoning its racist anti-Armenian, anti-minority ideology and policies.
Markos - November 10, 2010, 1:39AM

2
Hovannes Katchaznouni, the first prime-minister of the Armenian state founded in 1918 and the prime authority of the Dashnagzoutiun Party who wrote a book 'Dashnagzoutiun Has Nothing to do Anymore' was also another chief denier. Because, in his book which is banned in Armenia at present, he stated that
*it was a mistake to establish the volunteer units.
*They were unconditionally allied with Russia,
*They massacred the Moslem population,
*The Armenian terrorist acts were directed, at winning the Western public opinion.
*British occupation aroused hopes of the Dashnaks,
*They were provoked by imperial Sea to Sea land demand,
*They had not taken into consideration Turkey's power,
* They should have used a peaceful language towards the Turks but they (Armenian Dashnaks) rejected the Turks who suggested to negotiate with them and they went on making war
(KS Papazian the writer of 'Patriotism Perverted' published in 1934, in Boston, also confirms this Turkish suggestion. Note that 'Patrionism Perverted' is banned in Armenia).
*The decision of the deportation of Armenians was a rightful measure taken by Turks.
*Turkey had acted with an instinct of self-defence.
*Their government was a Dashnak dictatorship.
*The fault was within the Dashnak Party. They should commit suicide. They had nothing to do.
Vratsyan, the last prime minister of Dashnaks who wrote in an article published in December 3 1920 issue of Araç, that they transformed Armenia to an arenna of endless wars with its neighbours for the Entente Powers (RGASPİ fond 80, list 4, file 83, sheet 136) was another chief denier and agent of Turkish government.
fehmi - November 10, 2010, 3:38AM

New generations may not be aware of these facts. However, their parents and the Armenian authorities are aware of all these fact very well. Remember that in 2004, the Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform (VAT) composed of Austrian, Turkish and Armenian historians was founded to exchange documents about the 1915 events. After receiving 100 Turkish documents, the Armenians abondened the project refusing to continue to fulfil their commitments
(I. Press Release 11.1.2005 Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform – VAT
The Viennese Armenian-Turkish Platform deeply regrets to announce that she will not carry through her starting initiative „The First Viennese Armenian-Turkish Round Table" (FVATR Vienna 2005) originally planned for spring 2005. The reason is that the Armenian partner has not provided us with the necessary confirmation as agreed in August 2004.......On the other hand, the Turkish partner accepted already to participate in the dialogue, in which each part was supposed to present 180 documents on the year 1915 showing their understanding of this delicate matter. http://www.turkishdigest.com/documents/VATpressrelase.pdf)
Also, beware that the parliaments who recognized your genocide thesis, did so, depending on the vote of the Armenians not on the historical documents which were presented them by the Armenians.
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:20AM

According to Caleb F Gates, president of Robert College, the Armenian population statistics in January 1921, as confirmed by the Armenian Patriarchate was as follows: Armenians in Ottoman provinces approximetely 600 000; Armenians alive 944 900; Armenian total loss 355 000. (FO 371/6556/E 2730: Gates to Rumbold, 16.2.1921, giving the statistics of the Armenians then living in Turkey, obtained from the Armenian Patriarch). In the light of these statistics, how can the loss of about 400 000 Armenians be labelled as 'massacres, genocide, or proto-Holocaust' and the loss of over one million Muslims, as a result of Armenian activities, is not even mentioned? What kind of a holocoust is it that the aggressive side suffered much more losses than the attacked side? (From: Sonyel Salahi. The Great War and The Tragedy of Anatolia. TTK, 2000, pp.170-182)
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:22AM

Tatz, i was wondering if you ever read or heard about armenians first pms confessions about the issue! let me help you:

'... The war with us was inevitable... We had not done all that was necessary for us to have done to evade war. We ought to have used peaceful language with the Turks...We had no information about the real strength of the Turks and relied on ours. This was the fundamental error. We were not afraid of war because we thought we could win... Our army was well fed and well armed and [clothed] but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions ; they threw away their arms and dispersed in the villages. ...In spite of the fact that the Armenians had better material and better support, their armies lost. ..... the advancing Turks fought only against the regular soldiers ; they did not carry the battle to the civilian sector. ....the Turkish soldiers were well-disciplined and that there had not been any massacres...'

Source: The 1923 Bucharest Manifesto of Hovhannes Katchaznouni, the first PM of the Independent Armenian Republic, published by the Armenian Information Service Suite 7D, 471 Park Ave., New York 22 – 1955.
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:29AM

There has been no kind of court decision about what the Armenians call a 'genocide' nor has the Armenians ever applied to any court.
Moreover, International Court of Justice or domestic courts are the only authorities reserved to prosecute and proclaim genocide according to the 1948 UN Convention. Therefore, the Armenian allegation of genocide lacks evidence and legal support.
Have you ever wondered;
Why are they afraid of simply applying to the International Court of Justice instead of spending huge amounts of money to make the propaganda of their thesis?

Why are they afraid of discussing their thesis in historical joint commissions?

Why did they not open their archives up till now, while the Turkish archives are open?
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:31AM

"...During WWI, the Russians invaded the Caucasus, and with the help of local Armenians, they have chased Turks and Jews, killed whoever they could catch, and then pillaged and plundered Turkish and Jewish villages. He was about 10 years old and my father-in-law was only 3 and he said there is no way he could forget that exodus, that fleeing. Turks and Jews brought with them to Anatolia whatever they could pack with them. Jewish families first went to Van (a city by the lake Van in Eastern Anatolia). While some Jewish families settled there, others continued their travel to settle in Adana and other places, and still others went as far as Palestine. What I am trying to my Armenian friends is this: everything has a prior history. If the Armenian attack and kill Turks, Turks, in their quest to avenge those Armenian atrocities, may have caused massacres in their counter attacks and chases. Aren't these 'eye for an eye' feuds conventional and normal under the conditions of those days? In contrast, what the Germans did to 6 million Jews cannot be explained by such feuds, chases, or civil wars; there was absolutely no reason for the Holocaust. I never quite understood how the Armenians want to be included in the same category as the Jews of Holocaust. Momo Asafrana, December 09, 2004
corey - November 10, 2010, 4:37AM

Dear Hopeful

I repeat, there was no such thing as a "Malta Tribunal". There were Turks accused of War Crimes detained in Malta from 1919 pending the establishment of an inter-allied tribunal which unfortunately never eventuated because of the political changes which occcured in the Near East, and NOT because they were innocent. They were exchanged for 22 British prisoners (including Colonel Rawlinson) held by the Turkish (Kemalist) Nationalists in Erzerum. The decision of the British government to release the Turks was, as Australian Geoffrey Robertson QC recently observed, for reasons of "political expediency" resulting from the disunity of the European powers towards the defeated Ottoman Empire. As for the Turks held in Malta accused of the mistreatment of the Anzac POWs during WW1, there names can be found in the report titled "First and Second Interim Reports from the Committee of Enquiry into the Breaches of the Laws of War" January 1919, British National Archives ref. no. CAB/24/85. I will list some of the names of the Turks in my next post. The report includes the details of their crimes including the names of the British and Anzac POWs who were witnesses.
Daniel | Sydney - November 10, 2010, 9:16AM

The following is a list of some of the Turks who were detained in Malta for the mistreatment of the British and Anzac POWs in Turkey during WW1. The complete list is available in British National Archives doc. no. CAB/24/127.

Prisoner no. 2679 Mehmed Tewfik Bey
Prisoner no. 2680 Ahmed Tewfik Bey
Prisoner no. 2694 Djemal Eff Abdul
Prisoner no. 2707 Mazlum Bey Edib
Prisoner no. 2708 Haidar Bey Ahmed
Prisoner no. 2709 Sahmy Bey Ahmed
Prisoner no. 2710 Hakky Bey Ibrahim
Prisoner no. 2745 Tahir Bey

For excample, Mazlum Bey, the commandant of the Afion Karahissar internment camp is described in the report as follows: "a ferocious brute" and accused of "theft and sodomitical practices", "repeatedly flogged the prisoners", "callously indifferent to the condition of the prisoners ... 200 prisoners died within 6 weeks ... British medical officers were not allowed to attend to the medical needs ... etc etc.
Daniel | Sydney - November 10, 2010, 9:36AM
http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/denial-of-an-ugly-past-is-holding-turkey-back-20101108-17k8f.html


.


Steve Hogan has left a new comment at 5.3.2013:

Unfortunately, Prof. Colin Tatz is a crook. The evidence & documents leave little room to dispute the lobbyist professor's financial dealings with the Greek and Armenian diaspora in Australia... www.armeniangenocidelies.com/2012/11/15/colin-tatz-panayiotis-diamadis-armenian-greek-lobby-australia/

Embedded view of the link:



Direct Link to the pdf of the linked source file


Read More
Posted in Sukru AYA | No comments

Thursday, November 11, 2010

3167) Was There An Armenian Genocide? by Geoffrey Robertson & Counter Comments By Sukru Aya

Posted on 11:13 PM by Unknown
Geoffrey Robertson © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com
With Reference To Foreign & Commonwealth Office Documents Which Show How British Ministers, Parliament And People Have Been Misled

Note On The Author
Geoffrey Ronald Robertson QC (born 30 September 1946, Sydney, New South Wales) is an Australian-born human rights lawyer, academic, author and broadcaster. He holds dual Australian and British citizenship.

He grew up in the Sydney suburb of Eastwood, attending Epping Boys' High School. He obtained his law degree from the Sydney Law School before winning a Rhodes Scholarship to study at Oxford, where he graduated with a Bachelor of Civil Law. In 2006 he was awarded an honorary degree of Doctor of Laws by the University of Sydney.

Robertson currently lives with his wife and their two children in London.

Geoffrey Robertson is the founder and head of Doughty Street Chambers. He serves as a Master of the Bench at the Middle Temple, a recorder, and visiting professor at Queen Mary, University of London
“HMG is open to criticism in terms of the ethical dimension. But given the importance of our relations (political, strategic and commercial) with Turkey ... the current line is the only feasible option.”

Policy Memorandum, Foreign & Commonwealth Office to Minister
12 April 1999












.
Read More
Posted in Research PAPERS, Sukru AYA | No comments

Wednesday, November 10, 2010

3166) Confessions Of An Alienated Armenian

Posted on 11:14 PM by Unknown
Ara Baliozian © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com Racism consists in ascribing the crimes of the few on the entire nation or race. And because I am critical of Armenians (not all of them but a small fraction – see below) I am called a racist by functional illiterates who equate criticism with racism and dissent with treason. It follows, Stalin was right when he silenced dissenters. What's next? Heil Hitler?
*
Armenians may be divided into three distinct groups: the assimilated (who no longer identify themselves as Armenian), the alienated (who stay away from Armenian affairs, community centers, churches, schools, and demonstrations -- I count myself among them), and the dupes who believe everything they are told because they are brought up to believe thinking for oneself is a capital offense bordering on treason.
*
The Armenian version of the Jewish incantation “Next year in Jerusalem!” -- “Next year in Los Angeles!”
*
A reasonable man does not give matches to children with the warning not to start a fire. Likewise, a reasonable God does not give free will to man with the warning not to taste the fruit from the tree of knowledge. It follows, an Almighty and All-knowing God cannot be said to be reasonable; either that or His reason is our unreason.
*
When two adversaries negotiate, it is advisable that neither side engage in verbal abuse. That's one reason why I am all for friendly relations with Turks.
*
If an Armenian cannot negotiate with a fellow Armenian or be reasonable with those he disagrees with, what are his chances of reaching a consensus with the Turks?
*
I have a Turkish friends who believes the Armenian Genocide is a fiction of our collective imagination. And I believe Turks are dupes of their own state propaganda. That doesn't stop us from being friends. There is no rule that says friends must be carbon copies of each other. Neither is there a rule that says today's friend cannot be tomorrow's enemy and vice versa – yesterday's enemy cannot be today's friend. But there is a rule that says you can get more out of a friend than out of an enemy
. . .


Fund-Raisers & Related Atrocities
***
No activity has been more abused among us than fund-raising.
*
To say of someone that he has the integrity of a fund-raiser amount to calling him white trash.
*
The greatest beneficiaries of fun-raising are the fund-raisers themselves.
*
I have yet to meet a fund-raiser who placed the welfare of the people above his own fat income.
*
I loathe fund-raisers as much as I loathe pimps --and I say this with the full awareness that I am being unfair to pimps.
*
Which reminds me of the line:
“Please, don't tell my mother I am a lawyer: she thinks I am a pimp.”
*
Shakespeare: “Let's begin by killing all the lawyers.”
*
Dante: If he didn't dedicate an entire circle in his INFERNO to lawyers, he should have.
*
To the lawyers and fund-raisers on this forum (if there are any) I say: “Present company suspected.”
*
I rest my case.
Nothing further, your Honor.

THE NEGATIVE AND THE POSITIVE

Because I refuse to recycle propaganda,
I am told I am consistently negative.
Charents said our salvation is in our solidarity;
and all I have been saying is, solidarity, very much like the Kingdom of God, is within us.
It is an act of will within everyone's reach.
*
If so far we have failed to achieve solidarity it may be because we have trusted our fate into the hands of our bosses, bishops, and benefactors.
To those who say our leaders are essentially good men who are doing their best under unfavorable conditions, I ask: How so? By ignoring the word of the very same God they profess to believe in, and Who tells us “a house divided against itself cannot stand”?
Who is being consistently negative here?
Those who promote solidarity or those who divide the nation?
And why do they divide us?
Does anyone know?
Can anyone enlighten me on that score?
*
Our divisions are buried in our past?
What past? If you rewrite history you can justify anything; and if you don't want to learn from history you rewrite it.
It's a vicious circle.
*
Dealing in abstractions is easy.
The question is: What do we do in concrete terms?
I suggest the following:
If you are a Protestant, Catholic, or Anteliassagan, visit the opposition.
If you are a Tashnak, apply for membership
in the Ramgavar Party and vice versa.
You may discover that all Armenians regardless of their loyalty to a party or church are human beings like you
– that is to say, dupes of propaganda.
*
Sooner or later we all have to discover that
not only all Armenians are brothers,
but also all men, including Turks.


OBJECTION!
***
One of my gentle readers has taken it upon himself to straighten me out on the subject of lawyers by sending me a three line message which contains one insult and two curses.
Zarian is right: “An Armenian's tongue can be sharper than a Turk's yataghan.”
Since this is the first time I hear from this reader -- (let's call him Jack S. Avanakian not because I don't want to identify him but because I did not burden my memory with his name), I should be flattered in the knowledge that he agrees – or at least he does not disagree – with everything else I have been saying. But flattered, I am not!
I may not believe in curses, but neither do I welcome them.
May I assure Jack S. Avanakian and all lawyers in general that they have had a bad press long before I was born, and insulting me will do nothing to improve matters.
*
In my time I have dealt with several lawyers – probably more than my share – and one of them was indeed a fine gentleman (may he rest in peace) perhaps because there are good men everywhere, including Turks.
If I emphasize the dark side of things -- if I choose to expose the negative, as opposed to extolling the positive -- it may be because as an Armenian I refuse to adopt Saroyan (who pretended to love mankind but couldn't stand his own children) as a role model.
*
There are good lawyers as there are honest politicians out there somewhere. That, however, does not diminish the accuracy and relevance of Raymond Chandler's unforgettable observation, “The room was as dark as the prospects of an honest politician.” And if I have nothing good to say about them it's because we Armenians collectively have been perennial double victims of alien as well as our own political leadership.
*
Speaking of politicians: the fact that a great many of them are lawyers doesn't make them more palatable to my taste. But that's neither here nor there. What I find most repellent about lawyers is that they care more about the Law and less about Justice. And what has been the contribution of the Law in history – from the execution of Socrates and the Crucifixion of Christ to such more recent crimes against humanity as our Genocide, the Holocaust of the Jews, the countless violations of human rights against the Blacks in America, and the Gulag in the USSR (all of which were committed in the name of the Law)?
Throughout history, the Law has always acted as an arm of those in power (be they capitalists or commissars) even when they were no better than crminals.
*
If Jack S. Avanakian is not careful he may provoke me into saying that lawyers have been as bad as those whose interests they serve and whose powers they defend and legitimize. Sultan Abdulhamid II, Talaat, Hitler, Stalin, and Mao may be dead and buried but their offspring can always rely on lawyers to defend them even if they are as guilty as serial killers.
*
It would be no exaggeration to say that at the root of all injustice there will be a lawyer. And if there is more justice today in both Russia and the United States it's because of dissident writers like Solzhenitsyn and preachers like Martin Luther King, not lawyers.


REFLECTIOONS
***
If at the end of an argument neither side has moved an inch, they must be either Turks or Armenians.
*
You want to be a writer? Write a single honest line and you will be attacked by so many charlatans that you will spend the rest of your life replying to them and in the process exposing their dishonesty. Yes! -- all it takes is a single honest line.
*
We are told love is better than hatred. What we are not told is that it is wrong to love that which is deserving of our hate – things like lies, prejudice, greed, war, and massacre.
*
We are taught to love our homeland and fellow countrymen. What we are not taught is that singling them out as more deserving of our love than all others may have some undesirable consequences – among them xenophobia, chauvinism, racism, double-talk, cynicism, and ignorance of the world.
*
There is nothing wrong in being wrong. But there is something horribly wrong pretending to be infallible.
*
Philip Roth had to write PORTRNOY'S COMPLAINT to be hated by his fellow Jews. All an Armenian writer has to do is to say 2+2=4.
*
It's good to know that I live in a country where capital punishment by crucifixion or the death of a thousand cuts have been abolished. But as Antranik Zaroukian says somewhere, you can always rely on your fellow countrymen to find another equally painful method of execution.


A QUESTION OF PERSPECTIVE
***
Both Turks and Armenians share one thing in common: both see themselves as victims -- Turks as victims of the Great Powers, Russia, the Balkans, the Middle East, and Kurds, Greeks, and Armenians within Turkey itself; and Armenians see themselves as victims of Turks.
In Turkish eyes what happened to the Armenians was not a crime against humanity but a desperate self-defensive move against a mosaic of enemies bent on the total ruin and destruction of their Empire. They did what any David would have done when confronting Goliath; and because they couldn't cut off Goliath's head or, for that matter, his right arm, they cut off his nose.
In any case that's their story or, in modern parlance, their narrative, and they are sticking to it.
Their perspective is global, ours is tribal. Hence the semantic vacillations of the United States.
And speaking of Yanks: How do you think they will react on the day the Islamic world, with the tacit support of former enemies and present rivals, Russia and China, rises against them and threatens to wipe America off the map? Do you think they will send a diplomatic delegation to negotiate peace terms with them? Hell no! They will do what they did to the Japs at the end of World War II.
They will “teach them (Jihadists) a lesson they will never forget!”
They will do so even if it means killing innocent civilians by the million; even if it means to be accused forever after of unspeakable crimes against humanity.


DEAD END
***
Because I was critical of Armenians, I acquired several Turkish friends.
And because I became critical of Turks, I lost them.
Easy come, easy go.
*
That's another thing Armenians share with Turks: intolerance of criticism.
As long as they remain intolerant, reason will find no opening in their negotiations, and without reason there can be no dialogue, no compromise, and no consensus.
*
After saying they are for democracy and human rights, both Turks and Armenians suppress dissent.
Both delude themselves when they assert moral superiority.
Who believes them?
Only themselves.
*
Asserting the reality of the Genocide and denying it has become an industry among them. Both sides refuse to see the obvious, namely that, they were so blinded by hatred of the other that they slaughtered indiscriminately whenever they had the upper hand. But because Turks were a majority, Armenian victims outnumbered Turkish victims.
*
How to live in peace with their history?
They can't.
Hence their tendency to rewrite it.
*
Free speech is a meaningless commodity to those who don't know what freedom is and whose conception of speech consists in saying “Yes, sir!”
*
Armenians and Turks may reach a consensus only on the day they see reflection of themselves in the other. Until then their history will stand still.
*
For an Armenian, the idea that he may be as bad as a Turk is so repellent that it might as well be treason and blasphemy.
The same applies to Turks.
You may now draw your own conclusions.


ONE OR TWO THINGS ABOUT MYSELF
****
I have a phobia of boring the reader.
My secret ambition:
to write three-line essays as in a haiku.
*
The best Armenian joke I know:
bosses, bishops, benefactors.
*
Books I consider necessities, everything else a luxury.
Books I get free of charge from the public library;
luxuries from the dollar store.
*
Something to brag about:
I have never delivered a speech in my life;
and I have never heard a speech that didn't bore me.
*
I am beginning to think of death as liberation.
Writing for Armenians may have something to do with this.
*
The first time I met an honest Armenian,
I thought he was crazy.
*
Who will disagree with me if I say
to have an Armenian friend is to harbor a potential enemy?
*
I neither preach nor teach. I share.
There is an element of coercion in both preaching and teaching.
A preacher relies on a captive audience,
and a teacher on his own authority.
Sharing is between equals; it does not exploit or violate anyone's freedom.
*
Because Negro spirituals touch my soul
as deeply as our sharagans, my patriotism may well be suspect.
*
To be misunderstood is almost to suffer an injustice.


EXPLAINING AND UNDERSTANDING THE INCOMPREHENSIBLE
*
We all swim in the same soup.
There is a Cain in all of us, including Abel.
Am I saying anything you don't already know?
*
Armenians and Turks will begin to understand one another only when they say, “In their place, we would have done the same thing.”
*
Armenians have no choice but to accept their degrading history of subservience to the same degree that Turks have no choice but to accept their role as oppressors; and of the two I find it difficult to decide which is more morally reprehensible.
*
Do you really want to know what I think of imperialism? True, I don't have first-hand knowledge of what it means to be the subject of an empire; but I have dealt with Ottomanized and Stalinized Armenians, and the best thing I can say about them is that, if they class themselves up two or three notches, they may qualify as the scum of the earth. That's the best thing I can say about oppression and subservience.
Let others believe the Ottoman Empire was a progressive and civilizing force. As they say, there is no accounting for tastes, it takes all kinds, and against stupidity even the Gods compete in vain.
*
What could be more preposterous than to suggest all the nations that rose against the regime of the sultans (and I am not excluding Turks themselves) during the last decades of the Empire's existence were wrong and the Sultan right?
*
Under pressure or when provoked, all people, even the most civilized, are capable of committing crimes against humanity. Now then, go ahead and say six hundred years of oppression does not qualify as provocation.


RANDOM THOUGHTS
*******
An Armenian will disagree with you even when he agrees. His aim is not dialogue but monologue; not being smart but to appear to be smarter than you; not consensus but oneupmanship.
*
It is not that the world is moving at a faster rate than we are, the situation is much worse. We are moving backwards. Compare the first half of the last century with the present. In the first half we had Oshagan, Zarian, General Antranik, Karekin Nejdeh, Roupen Der Minassian, Nikol Aghbalian, and many others. Today we have nothing but Turcocentric ghazetajis and brainless, faceless empty suit.
*
To those who say our problems are the world's problems, I say: Name a single nation that has been at the mercy of brutal foreign oppressors for as long as we have been.
*
If at times I am merciless in my criticism, it’s because life has been even more merciless to us collectively. Compared to how tough life has been, I don’t even qualify as a marshmallow.

They recycle propaganda and call it free speech.
*
No dupe can ever be free.
*
The greatest enemy of liars is not the truth but reality.
*
Instead of speaking about Greeks, Kurds, Arabs, and Turks, we should teach ourselves to speak of human beings. That way we may learn to emphasize that which we share.
*
Shakespeare (THE WINTER’S TALE): “I would there were no age between sixteen and three-and-twenty; for there is nothing the between but getting wenches with child, wronging the ancientry, stealing, fighting, drinking.”
*
On more than one occasion I have been taken to task (a euphemism for “I have been verbally abused”) for not being as brilliant as Hagop Baronian. If that were a crime, I deserve to be hanged.
*
Giambattista Vico:
“Crowded city life produces men who are unbelievers, who regard money as the measure of all things, and who lack moral qualities, particularly modesty…. Emancipated from ethics generally, they live by mutual spying and deceit.”
*
If you can’t contradict the idea, insult the man.
*
An Armenian who is about to lose an argument turns into a Turk.


ONE-LINERS
*******
Truth is an invention of liars.
*
Truth is a work in progress, not a finished product.
*
The consensus of a million people guarantees nothing. A billion smart men may be taken in as easily as a single dumb dupe.
*
Truth may be one but those who speak in its name are many.
*
Lying comes as naturally to men of power as swimming to fish, flying to birds, and slithering to serpents.
*
I am not here to solve problems but to show their hiding places.
*
Educating children and brainwashing them might as well be synonymous operations.
*
To explain the incomprehensible is to lie.
*
The aim of a religion or an ideology is to assert a monopoly on truth.
*
Monopoly favors the producer, not the consumer.
*
The most dangerous liars are those who speak in the name of truth.
*
Faith allows us to believe in a lie with a clear conscience.
*
There are as many versions of the past as there are historians.
*
Subservience to God also means subservience to those who speak in His name.
*
Subservience is hell.


Ara Baliozian

For Further Recent Notes From Ara Baliozian : Click Here: What Have You Got Against The Armenian People?





.
Read More
Posted in Ara BALIOZIAN, Sukru AYA, William Saroyan | No comments

3165) Free E-Book: Story Of Turkey And Armenia, Baltimore, 1896 -James Wilson Pierce DD

Posted on 7:52 AM by Unknown
 Story Of Turkey And Armenia © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com Story Of Turkey And Armenia, Baltimore, 1896
Edited by James Wilson Pierce DD












.
Read More
Posted in Free E-Books | No comments

Sunday, November 7, 2010

3164) Armenian Photo Fakery Again (!) See The Background Image Of The ANCA Poster

Posted on 9:06 AM by Unknown
Updated 11 May 2011

Updated Updated 15 Apr 2011 Here:
Fakery By ANCA Again: Photograph Shows Turks Slaughtered By Armenian Volunteers In Subatan, 1918



ANCA Countdown Poster © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com
Kindly Forwarded By TruckTurkey


See Below How ANCA Executive Director Aram Suren Hamparian ((1711 N St., NW
Washington, DC 20036) deletes a question when he is confronted with the origin of the background image at ANCA Countdown Logo





Aram Suren Hamparian cannot answer the origin of the question ( The background image was taken from the official Turkish Military Archives ) and deletes it






18 Nov 2010



We Love ANCA . . We Love ANCA . . .


20 Nov 2010


Added: 11 May 2011
Related Post Referenced To This site (http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/)
Translated by Google from ( http://www.1news.az/analytics/20110511114127620.html )




Comments
Shamelessness and habitual fakery, reaffirmed in this poster if ANCA.

The photograph in the background, are of Turkish boys and girls massacred by Armenian humpabets.

Shamelessness and habitual fakery by Armenians   © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com

S S Aya

.
Read More
Posted in | No comments

Wednesday, November 3, 2010

3163) Reparations in International Law by Alfred De Zayas, UCLA Conference, 23 Oct 2010

Posted on 1:39 AM by Unknown
Updated Updated 3.03am GMT 23 Nov 2010  Zayas © This content Mirrored From  http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com
  • Reparations in International Law by Alfred de Zayas, UCLA Conference, 23 Oct 2010
  • Conference Review & Counter Comments -Open Reply To Alfred De Zayas by Sukru Server Aya, 5 Nov 2010
  • Further Communication From Alfred De Zayas, 6 Nov 2010
  • UCLA Reparations Conference Looks at Legal, Ethical, Political Aspects of Justice for Genocide 4 Nov 2010


  • Alfred De Zayas is a professor of international law in the Geneva School of Diplomacy in Switzerland. He has served as senior lawyer in the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights and as secretary of the Human Rights Committee

    Ladies and gentlemen,

    The Armenians have undoubtedly a strong and legitimate claim to receive reparation from Turkey for the material and moral injury that accompanied the genocide perpetrated between 1915 and 1923.[1] Bearing in mind that there is no prescription in international law in cases of genocide and crimes against humanity, the Armenian entitlement for reparation has certainly not lapsed. Therefore, it is only normal that Armenians should continue to press their demand for reparation in the form of restitution of their cultural and religious heritage, including churches and monasteries, compensation for destroyed property as well as for the immense moral suffering endured, and a measure of satisfaction in the form of an official apology from the Government of Turkey and recognition of their status as victims of genocide. This right to the various levels of reparation can and should be invoked by the survivors of the descendants of the Armenian genocide both in Armenia and in the diaspora
    . . .

    The Norms of international law, which I shall briefly outline, are fairly clear. Nevertheless, these norms are not always self-executing and may require legislative action in order to identify the specific legal basis and establish the proper forum where claims for restitution and reparation may be adjudicated.

    What is most needed is the political will of governments throughout the world to ensure that appropriate legislative and judicial measures are taken in order to implement the applicable norms of international law. For this political will to materialize, it is necessary to mobilize civil society in all countries, to educate through the universities, high schools and the media, and to appeal to the overarching principle of human dignity from which all human rights derive. To discriminate among victims of genocide is inacceptable and entails in itself a separate and distinct violation of human dignity.

    Now, the Principle of reparation for violations of international law is not a new normative development attributable to the work of the League of Nations, or of the United Nations or of the International Law Commission. The obligation to make reparation for violations of international law is a general principle of law as referred to in article 38, paragraph 1c of the Statute of the International Court of Justice. Already the Permanent Court of International Justice stated in its 1928 Judgment in the Chorzow Factory Case[2]:

    “It is a principle of international law, and even a general conception of the law, that any breach of an engagement involves an obligation to make reparation.”
    Similarly, article 31 of the Draft Articles on State Responsibility, which essentially reflect pre-existing international law, stipulates that “the responsible State is under an obligation to make full reparation for the injury caused by the internationally wrongful act.”

    Article 34 stipulates further that “full reparation for the injury caused by the internationally wrongful act shall take the form of restitution, compensation or satisfaction, either singly or in combination.”

    More concretely, in the Armenian case where enormous destruction was visited on the cultural heritage of thousands of years, the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property of 1954[3] and its Protocols give us guidance.

    Among other general principles of law that apply in the context of the obligation to make reparation are the principle of “good faith”, the prohibition of “unjust enrichment” the rules on “estoppel”, the principle “ex injuria non oritur jus”, which provides that no rights can be derived from a prior violation of law. Bearing in mind that genocide and crimes against humanity are the most grievous offences against international law, it is obvious that the murderer cannot keep the fruits of the crime. International ordre public or public order imposes this conclusion.

    Some will object that the Chorzow Factory Case Judgment, the Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property, the Genocide Convention and the International Law Commission’s Articles on State Responsibility are all subsequent to the Armenian genocide and that therefore they cannot be applied retroactively. This is wrong. Not only is it a fallacy in international law, but also a red herring intended to distract attention from the core issues and to undermine the Armenian entitlements.

    The fact is that the Armenian claims did not arise with these instruments and judgments, but were already in existence in 1915 and were recognized internationally in article 144 of the Treaty of Sevres of 1920, which was signed by the representatives of the Sultan but not ratified after the Kemalist revolution. The non-enforcement of article 144 does not mean that the entitlements did not exist, but rather that the use of force by Mustafa Kemal Attaturk prevented the implementation of applicable norms of international law.

    Law, ladies and gentlemen, is not mathematics. And the norms – as good as they may look on paper – are certainly not equivalent to their enforcement. On the other hand, the non-enforcement of norms, even for a prolonged period of time, does not detract from their validity. And you should not be discouraged because of the reluctance of some journalists and politicians to endorse your claims. It is your right to continue pressing the claims until they are satisfied.

    As far as compensation is concerned, Article 36 of the Articles on State Responsibility[4] stipulate the obligation of a State “to compensate for the damage caused … insofar as such damage is not made good by restitution.”

    As far as satisfaction is concerned, Article 37 stipulates “The State responsible for an internationally wrongful act is under an obligation to give satisfaction for the injury caused by the act insofar as its obligation cannot be made good by restitution or compensation. Satisfaction may consist in an acknowledgement of the breach, an expression of regret, a formal apology or another appropriate modality.”

    In this connection it is useful to recall that in 1993 President Bill Clinton issued an apology[5] to the people of Hawaii for the crimes and abuses committed in connection with the overthrow of the legitimate government of the Hawaiian Queen one hundred years earlier, in 1893. Similarly, on 13 February 2008 the Prime Minister of Australia Kevin Rudd issued an apology to the Aborigines of Australia for the injustices visited upon them. It should be noted that title to huge areas of Australia has been returned to the Aborigines, who are now administering these territories in cooperation with Australian authorities. Thus, even “historical inequities” can be partly redressed provided that there be a modicum of good will. Indeed, over the past decades the various governments of Germany have issued countless apologies to the governments and peoples of Poland, Czechoslovakia, Belgium, the Netherlands, France, etc. in connection with the Holocaust. Germany has also made meaningful reparation in the form of both restitution and compensation to the survivors of the victims of the genocide.

    In obtaining reparation the Armenians should also appeal to international solidarity and to the erga omnes obligation not to recognize the effects of war crimes and crimes against humanity. Article 10 of the United Nations Draft Declaration on the Illegality of population transfers of August 1997 stipulates:

    “Where acts or omissions prohibited in the present Declaration are committed, the international community as a whole and individual States, are under an obligation: (a) not to recognize as legal the situation created by such acts; (b) in ongoing situations, to ensure the immediate cessation of the act and the reversal of the harmful consequences; (c) not to render aid, assistance or support, financial or otherwise, to the State which has committed or is committing such act in the maintaining or strengthening of the situation created by such act. “[6]

    Of particular relevance to the Armenians are the Basic Principles and Guidelines on the Right to a Remedy and Reparation for Victims of Gross Violations of International Human Rights Law and Serious Violations of International Humanitarian Law, adopted by the General Assembly in its Resolution 60/147 of 16 December 2005.[7] Section VII, paragraph 10 of the Basic principles stipulates: “Remedies … include the victim’s right to the following as provided for under international law:

    “(a) Equal and effective access to justice
    (b) Adequate, effective and prompt reparation for harm suffered,
    (c) access to relevant information concerning violations and reparation mechanisms.”

    Section IX, paragraph 15 stipulates:

    “ Adequate, effective and prompt reparation is intended to promote justice by redressing gross violations of international human rights law or serious violations of international humanitarian law. Reparation should be proportional to the gravity of the violations and the harm suffered. “

    Paragraph 16 stipulates:

    “States should endeavour to establish national programmes for reparation and other assistance to victims.”

    Paragraph 17 stipulates:

    “States shall, with respect to claims of victims, enforce domestic judgements for reparation against individuals or entitles liable for the harm suffered and endeavour to enforce valid foreign legal judgements for reparation in accordance with domestic law and international legal obligations. To that end, States should provide under their domestic laws effective mechanisms for the enforcement of reparation judgments”

    Paragraph 19 stipulates:

    “Restitution should, whenever possible, restore the victim to the original situation before the gross violations of international human rights law or serious violations of international humanitarian law occurred. “

    Paragraph 20 stipulates:

    “Compensation should be provided for any economically assessable damage as appropriate and proportional to the violation and the circumstances of each case… such as “(a) physical or mental harm, (b) lost opportunities, including employment, education and social benefits, (c) material damages and loss of earnings, including loss of earning potential; (d) moral damage; (e) costs required for legal or expert assistance, medicine and medical services and psychological and social services.”

    Section XI is of particular relevance. Paragraph 25 stipulates “the application and interpretation of these Basic Principles and guidelines must be consistent with international human rights law and be without any discrimination of any kind or on any ground, without exception.”

    Another significant United Nations document that gives support to the Armenian Claims is the report of the Independent Expert Sergio Pinheiro known as United Nations Principles on Housing and Property Restitution, or simply as the Pinheiro Principles[8].

    Principle 2 stipulates clearly: “All refugees and displaced persons have the right to have restored to them any housing, land and/or property or which they were arbitrarily or unlawfully deprived, or to be compensated for any housing, land and/or property that is factually impossible to restore as determined by an independent, impartial tribunal.”

    Ladies and gentlemen, I could continue citing norms of hard law and soft law that apply to or are of particular relevance to the case of the Armenian genocide. Suffice it to say that international law is on the side of the Armenians.

    Another issue is that of implementation, and you know better than anyone else what an uphill battle it has been to obtain recognition of the historicity of the genocide. Here again the United Nations can strengthen your claim through its increasing insistence on the right to truth[9], including historical truth. This may be a right de lege ferenda, but a right that you can already invoke in the form of pertinent United Nations resolutions.

    I do not underestimate the obstacles before you in obtaining reparation for the injuries suffered in connection with the Armenian genocide. One problem is that of non-self-executing international norms. This is why Austria and Germany have adopted laws related to the restitution of objects to victims, as has the United States in the form of its Law on Restitution for the World War II Internment of some 120,000 Japanese-Americans and Aleuts.

    It is the responsibility of politicians to propose such legislation in Congress, e.g. to make Armeinan claims against Turkey justiciable in United States courts. The United States has adopted the Federal Alien Tort Claims Act pursuant to which Jewish claimants have been able to obtain redress.

    Before finishing this short introduction, I should mention the possibility of entrusting the United Nations with the responsibility to administer a Fund for Victims of the Armenian Genocide and their Descendants. Already the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights administers several funds, e.g. for the Victims of Torture, and this experience would provide a blueprint for an Armenian United Nations Fund.

    I thank you for your attention.


    References

    [1] Alfred de Zayas, “The Genocide Against the Armenians 1915-1923 and the Relevance of the 1948 Genocide Convention”, Haigazian University Press, Beirut 2010. Also available in Spanish translation, El Genocidio contra los Armenios, Catálogos S.R.L., Buenos Aires 2009.
    [2] Publications of the Permanent Court of International Justice, Series A - No. 9; Collection of Judgments
    A.W. Sijthoff’s Publishing Company, Leyden
    [3] http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/400?OpenDocument, http://www.unesco.org/new/index.php?id=19138&L=0
    http://www.unesco.org.uk/convention_for_the_protection_of_cultural_prope...
    [4] Adopted in second reading 2001. untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/.../9_6_2001.pdf
    [5] Resolution 19, 103d U.S. Congress, 23 November 1993. http://www.hawaii-nation.org/publawall.html
    [6] E/CN.4/Sub.2/1997/23.
    [7] http://www2.ohchr.org/english/law/remedy.htm
    [8] http://www.unhcr.org.ua/img/uploads/docs/PinheiroPrinciples.pdf
    [9] http://www2.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/12session/A-HRC-12-1...



  • Conference Review And Counter Comments - Open Reply To Alfred De Zayas by Sukru Server Aya







    We have forwarded a copy of the counter comments above to Mr Zayas (5 Nov 2010) And just received his further communication (6 Nov 2010) as follows:
    -------- Original Message --------
    Subject: Re: Counter comments
    Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:41:29 +0100
    From: Alfred Zayas alfreddezayas at gmail dot com
    To: newsrush at gmail dot com
    CC: Henry Theriault htheriault at worcester dot edu,
    Garo Armenian gkarmenian at gmail dot com,
    hilda tchoboian hilda dot tchoboian at eafjd dot eu


    Sorry
    We are not in Kindergarten
    And we are not going to have to prove that the Earth isn't really flat.
    The Historical work has been done by greater historians than myself
    We are no longer at square one. The issue is that of reparations, not of proving and reproving the genocide.
    I refer you to my book "The Genocide Against the Armenians and the Relevance of the 1948 Genocide Convention".

    Kind regards,
    Alfred de Zayas
    www.alfreddezayas.com


    Genocide Against Armenians 1915-1923 & Relevance Of 1948 Genocide Convention By Alfred De Zayas



    Reader Comments

    I attended this seminar last
    Submitted by John Keusseyan, Lt Col USAF (Retired) , 2010-10-26
    I attended this seminar last Saturday. It was very informative. I think we should have similar seminars on a regular basis. I also asked a question about the Protocol that was signed by Armenia and Turkey last October. The question was: if the Protocols are ratified by both Armenia and Turkey how will that impact or change our territorial demands? And the answer was (by Ara Papian): we give up all our rights beyond the current borders of Armenia. So, we should make sure that the Armenian Parliament does not ratify the Protocols, if they do ratify, it will be the end of Armenian Cause.


    Reparations only for sufferings & lost properties?
    Submitted by VTiger on , 2010-10-26 1

    Valuable article. However my question is how can we get reparations for our occupied lands? Our occupied lands are creating wealth for Turkey whether with their natural resources or being oil/gas pipeline route from the east to Europe & Turkey & so many other... Should we get reparations for our occupied lands on a yearly basis similar to renting a property?

    Dikranagertzi
    Thank you and very well said Prof. De Zayas.

    The misguided people in our community who still cling to a victim complex of defeatism in our relations with Turkey (i.e. Karekin types) need to read and re-read this article as many times as necessary until they realize that defending our peoples rights to our occupied lands and property is a righteous legal cause worth fighting tooth and nail for. Those who believe in our cause will continue to cling to a justice complex and work to reclaim our rightful belongings with compensation. While the rest of us work towards this end, the nervous Nellie’s amongst us and the nattering nabobs of negativism who still suffer from a victim complex are free to watch and learn from the sidelines AGAIN…(i.e. RA independence, NK liberation etc.).

    gayane
    AMEN Dikranagertzi jan… well said…

    Excellent article.. Thank you Professor De Zaya.. You truly put all those who believe otherwise to shame.. We appreciate your candid and informative speech…

    Like Dikranagertzi stated above, all the Karekins and nervous Nellis of the world should read and re-read this article over and over.. because I for one will never stop fighting….we do have the right to fight.. and i dont’ care if Karekins of the world and Ragnars of the world says otherwise…because my great grandfather did not work to his bones to save orphans and re-unite them with their families all over the world and lose his own family and wealth to Genocide to have us shot our mouths, eyes and ears and let things just be as they are… HELL NO…

    This article should be share with everyone and be posted everywhere…

    Thank you again

    Gayane

    Osik
    I was there listened to him talking on the phone , I’ve never been to such interesting conference where tons of fresh ideas regarding the restitution aspect of the Armenian Genocide was put on the table with detailed scientific analysis.

    I really enjoyed every bit of it and I want to thank the organizers for that.
    During lunch break I was alone where Edgar an intelligent Armenian young man approached my table and asked if he can join me.

    We exchanged the basic information and then he asked me what I’m seeing for the future where my answer was ready, I told him:

    Having these brilliant ideas on the table first thing that we need is unity and one voice, and that is just in this important subject only, no one will listen to us if we continue talking with totally different ideas, first we must unite and put aside all those divisive things like political ideologies, country of origin, accents, name callings, and we all know what else; to become like one with one voice and that voice can’t be anyone other than the President of the Armenian Republic.

    I know it sounds naïve and seems I’m hallucinating with John Lennon’s song, but think twice; who will listen to a bunch of people; scattered around the world who even don’t understand each other and can’t unit in something that they are asking from the world.

    That requires that all Armenians of the world to put a temporary halt to all internal disagreements, problems and focus just on resolution of the Armenian Genocide by standing behind our President.
    Now the most important and essential thing for us; that is all Armenians; to do so is to hear and learn from our President what is his plan for the Armenian Genocide resolution in this critical turning point, because signing the “Protocol” will put an end to everything.

    Katia K
    Bravo De Zayas!
    I congratulate the organizers of the UCLA convention. This is an extremely important work. It is long time coming. I am very happy that we are more and more focusing our efforts in giving shape to our legal claims for reparation and restitution from Turkey within the framework of international legal and academic guidelines.

    I am no expert, but I tend to agree with Ossig, that in order to be taken seriously we have to speak in one voice. Several different voices will undermine and weaken our case. In this respect an Armenia Diaspora Artsakh Union needs to be formed or a Universal Armenian committee should be elected and internationally recognized as the official body presenting the grievances of the Armenian people.

    gayane
    Agreed with Katia on organizing a united body to represent of all Armenians..excellent idea and well received… now we need to find a leader and start the process.. Katia.. how about I nominate you, Msheci, Jda, Mjm, Boyajian,to kick off this excellent idea of yours..:)

    Ossik jan.. your intentions are well received however trust me when I say this.. the pResident may have great ideas how to get the ball rolling but he is not sharing or putting into practice.. on the contrary, he is doing things that are taking Armenian backwards instead of forward.. i would love to support our President he needs to be the man our people want to follow… once he earns people’s trust and respect, people will automatically follow him.. no doubt. but until then.. i dont’ think you will have alot of supporters on this particular point…however, you definintely have the right idea…

    God Bless our people and Armenia…

    Gayane

    rebecca
    What is Armenia waiting for?
    It’s time to do a FUNDRAISER for Armenia to pursue Turkey legally, whatever the cost may be. I suggest doing a MASSIVE star studded concert – with Aznavour, and other world class performers – in CYPRUS. Not in the Turk occupied North – but in CYPRUS proper. The funds raised should be immediately made available to pursue legal action against the rapists, murderers, thieves, arsonists and criminals of the Ottoman Empire,

    and their RELATIVES who profited from these crimes.
    No Armenian can ever be safe can ever start healing before JUSTICE is demanded and achieved.

    Murat
    Really, if the case is so strong, what are you all waiting for? Any ideas about where I can apply for reparations for the lost lands, property and lives caused by Armenians? The I want to take Crazy Ivan of Russia to court, the maybe Napoleon and Chuchill and all their estates, governments and anyone else I can find…

    Robert
    Well said Murat! Too bad the editorial board keeps censoring and deleting all of my posts! It’s truly sad to watch a group of cowards do things like this. What a bad example they are to future generations of Armenian children!

    gayane
    Oh look.. the two stooges from the three stooges group sang again.. how cute…

    You two are an inconic Turks that represent some % in the world who have so much hate against ARmenians and any drop of “oh Turkey is going down little by little” trigger your small brains to react right away and write such negative and untrue statements.. amazing.. but not surprising..

    Murat, Ivan of Russia and Napleon? seriously? you seriously trying to compare cold blooded murder of millions, (INTENTIONAL murder) with these two nut jobs? i mean if you are talking about nut jobs, crazies, and phycos.. then you may be accurate…. Turkey is definintely in the same boat as these people including Hitler… however the events and circumstances of these nut jobs are no where comparible for what your blood thirsty govt did to innocent people… no comparison at all.. that shows how your knowledge of history is sooo wacked up….

    If I was a Turk, a decent, intelligent, open minded, Turk, I would be ashamed to call myself a Turk knowing you two represent a % of my own people ….

    Robert… you worry about the future generations of the Armenian children? oh how human of you.. how sweet of you.. if you are sooo worried about our children why don’t you get your mind out of genocidal state toward Armenians and start acknowledging what happened in 1915 was indeed a Genocide..that goes to your other stooges who believe Genocide is a myth, a lie, something we took out of our you know what… i would think learning the history, THE TRUE history, and admitting your govt’s intentionally killing million and a half (could be more ) innocent men, women, children and elderly, and start repaying back the lands and riches you and your family enjoy, and enjoyed for years upon years, then i can say you truly do think about our future generations.. because then our Children won’t grow up knowing that Turkey still hides behind the money and wealth she stole of their ancestors by murdering them in cold blood; and continue to instill hatred and lies into HER OWN Turkish children… especially in schools.. now THAT is a sad sad fact…

    You two need professional help…

    G

    Murat
    I would rather call them misled. Obviously they have great affection and love for those lands which you and I also call home. That is not a terrible thing actually. I wish they could channel those feelings to more productive and constructive ends. There is an opportunity to actually re-seed the Armenian culture and even presence in Asia Minor again. All this backward looking, vendettas and racial and ethnic and religious hate makes all potential positive developments so less likely.

    paul
    Murat, the difference is that these lands are ancestral home for me, but stolen home for you. Try to understand that what you call “backward looking, vendettas and racial, ethnic and religious hate” originate from 95-year long denial of your state to acknowledge the crime and apologize to us. What is “racial, ethnic, and religious hate” for you is righteous indignation for Armenians. The responsibility for committing a crime has no time limits, therefore, it can’t be called “backward looking.” If Armenians are “backward looking,” what about other members of international community who in the present time continue to acknowledge the crime of your grandparents as genocide? Because non-acknowledgment of crimes against humanity, and Turkish barbarity undoubtedly falls under this category, sparkles repetition of similar crimes. Jewish Holocaust that Hitler justified based on Turkish annihilation of Armenians, genocides of the Cambodians, holodomor of the Ukrainians, genocides of the Cambodians and Darfurians, are examples of this universal truth. Your suggestion to drop “backward looking, vendettas and racial and ethnic and religious hate” and call for an utopist “opportunity to re-seed the Armenian culture and even presence in Asia Minor again” is nothing else than an attempt, in the best tradition of your denialist, unrepentant government, to bury Turkey’s obligation to apologize to Armenians to oblivion. Ain’t gonna happen, Murat. Apology first, and then we’ll think about re-seeding the Armenian culture and presence in Asia Minor. Cheers.

    Boyajian
    Paul has said it so well. The truth will not be buried as long as there are ‘backward-looking’ Armenians with breath to speak it. Period. Turkey would be better off acknowledging this bitter truth and forging a new future with its Armenian neighbors and thus, the rest of the civilized nations of the world.

    To all Turks who deny the truth, hate the truth, are repulsed by the truth, hate the speakers of the truth, teach their children to hate the speakers of the truth, pay others to create false history, teach distorted history, attempt to destroy evidence of the truth by destroying ancient churches and cemeteries, claim ancient artifacts as ‘Seljuk remnants’: Your future as a people lies in facing reality and not in running from your nomadic and barbaric past. You will never outrun the truth. It is well-recorded throughout the world and the nations are declaring it,one after the other. The Armenians have had a presence in those lands over thousands of years and a culture that has outlasted the majority of conquerors that have come and gone. Our virtue is patience and our strength is in the knowledge that we are on the right side of justice. Your ancestors may not have known better. Do you? Can you rise above acting as criminals who hide their crime or blame the victim? Can you value all people as equal? Can you simply say ’We are sorry. What can we do to make things right?’
    To Turks who acknowledge the Truth: Thank you for your courage!

    To the Azeris: Honor the right to self-determination and give up what was never rightfully yours in the first place. Gain peace with neighbors instead.

    To the Armenian Diaspora: Let your voice be heard! The Armenian story is still being written and we are each part of it.

    To the Armenian Church: Lead your people in this just fight! Where is the Khrimian Hayrig for this generation?

    To the leaders of the Republic: Serve justice and make a name for yourselves in history that will outlive all the riches you will leave behind once you leave this life!

    To the citizens of Armenia: Do not lose heart. You are the caretakers of an ancient and noble culture. Hold your leaders accountable and demand courage and honor of them.

    To the Karekins: To fight for justice is a Godly act. Don’t be afraid to be unpopular with the perpetrators. Your rewards are not to be found here on earth, anyway.

    To the Ragnars: How will history remember you?
    To the Media: Who will carry on Hrant Dink’s legacy?
    To those who would call me naive: How has realistic passivity and acquiescence worked for us? All gains we have achieved have come from activism borne of commitment to the IDEAL of justice.

    gayane
    AMEN BOYAJIAN JAN.. AMEN… you hit the bull’s eye.. Very strong and powerful words.. and i agree with them 100%.. Thank you for putting it in such clear way that Murat and Robert, Ragnar and Karekins of the world can read and understand…. it was straight to the point…

    Paul jan.. well said my friend.. well said…

    Murat… backward looking? wow.. you are full of yourself are not you? It is just absolutely frustrating that one group of people who had no idea what culture is, what it means family values, what it means art and music, conquer by murder, rape, killing and taking over everything Armenians, the civilized people created for many years and now the same group now are jumping high and mighty, calling the land and wealth their own.. that to me my friend is lower than a scum…to me that govt is like parasites,…. they are the filth of the earth… so if you truly want to make a difference, i say you need to get out of the dirt and clean your shoes and enter a much cleaner, honest and just world … then a chance of having a better conversation is likely to happen…. until then…… have a blessed day…

    Gayane

    Karekin
    Look folks…I don’t deny that reparations would be a just resolution to 1915, but, tell me, how does one get blood from a stone? No scientist can do it, and no one here seems to have a rational answer that will produce results. You may choose to be angry, bitter and worse, but I don’t. I won’t put my head under the sand or wear sunglasses to shield these facts. This does not mean I don’t support the Armenian position, it’s just that I’ve lived long enough to see that no one in our community has been able to address it effectively for the last 95 years and that tells me all I need to know.

    AslanAram
    Robert, You and Murat are the real cowards here. You and your ilk are cowards because you are dead scared of …….the TRUTH. I may be mistaken though, because you may just be historically brain-dead ignorants, simply indoctrinated to believe LIES fabricated by the Turkish anti-Armenian propagnda machine. On the other hand, you are probably a couple of agents, stooges of the biggest coward, the Turkish government, here only to evesdrop on us and to gauge our resilience, which as you can see, will FOREVER remain intact. Soooooo……Why don’t you both pick up the FACTS (even the healthy self-criticism) you’ve learnt in this ARMENIAN forum, backed by INTERNATIONAL LAW as Prof. De Zayas stated, and find the courage to go back to your Masters in your pathetic gov. and your biased media and tell them this: “Wakey wakey everyone……..Look at how our biggest ally in modern history, Germany, have recognised the Armenian Genocide….isn’t it time for TURKEY to show how BRAVE we can be to own up to the TRUTH and finally show the world that we want to be CIVILIZED and kick our barbaric past into touch.”

    Until you can do that, then please don’t be a fool and call anyone here a coward. Oh, except Murat and Robert, of course!

    Boyajian
    Karekin, how is asking for an acknowledgment of the truth and an apology like ‘getting blood from a stone’? How is asking for just compensation for what was stolen like ‘getting blood from a stone’? Neither of these things is so far fetched that Armenians should be discouraged from pursuing them. Why are you so committed to dissuading Armenians from pursuing their rights under international law?

    Karekin
    Boyajian – do you not think the case has been made at some point during the last 95 years? Where has international law been all this time? Our case has been made rather consistently and very well by many, many illustrious people over the years, including my very own grandfather. But what has that gotten us? In all honesty, asking for something, while it may be polite, isn’t always effective especially because the other party can always say ‘no’. Plus, it’s virtually impossible to do it on your own. In this day and age, Armenians asking for something, in Khrimian Hayrig fashion, with a paper cup, gets us nothing substantial or lasting. It never has. The world is not sympathetic to Armenians or Armenian causes….and I have no idea why. We have lost land, people, monuments, history and more…yet no one seems to care, at least not enough to help us get those reparations. At some point, we need to be realistic and get our heads out of the sand. This is why I feel our focus should be on what we have, not on what we’ve lost. We have Armenia and we have Karabagh…those need to be paramount. History is nice, but we cannot and should not be held hostage by it. No one can take it away from us, but they can take away today’s Armenia if we’re not careful.

    Katia K.
    Gayane jan,
    Thank you for your vote of confidence! Our younger generation should aspire to be as patriotic as you instead of being indifferent to our cause, Bravo!

    Boyanjian!!! You outdid yourself! Your post of Nov 1st, is so inspirational, it belongs in an article of its own instead of a mere commentary! Absolutely excellent messages! Bravo!

    Murat and Robert… I think you should entertain the idea that maybe YOU are the ones who have been misled. It would serve you to look up or read about the following:

    1. Turkey has already agreed to return the Armenian lands in now Eastern Turkey back to the Armenians, in the Treaty of Sevres that Turkey itself signed with the Allies and the US in 1920.
    2. In true Turkish fashion, after signing the Sevres, Turkey went on a full scale attack on Yerevan to finish off the Armenians and take over the fledgling first Armenian Republic (1918-1920).
    3. The trained Turkish army lost the war against the destitute remnants of the Armenian people who put up the fight of their lives in the battle of Sardarabad. The Turkish army retreated!
    4. In legal terms, the Armenian lands are considered “occupied” by Turkey because they were returned to the Armenians in the Treaty of Sevres which Turkey simply ignored.
    5. 200,000 additional Armenian refugees died of hunger and disease in the newly formed Republic of Armenia. Not sure if they could withstand another attack from Turkey they agreed to join the Soviet Union.
    6. What Turkey could not gain in battle, it got with a backdoor cowardly agreement with the Soviet Union in the Kars Treaty of 1921 and snatched Ani, Van, Kars, Ardahan, Ararat from Armenia. Yes, Ani, Van, Kars, Ardahan and mount Ararat belonged to Armenia until 1921. The Kars Treaty has always been illegal because it was signed between Turkey and the Soviet Union which by the way no longer exists. So the Kars Treaty is either way no longer valid, because one of the parties that signed it no longer exists.
    7. In order to make its illegal eastern borders stick, Turkey came up with the genius clause in the recent ill fated Protocols, which asks for Armenia to sign and agree that Turkey’s eastern border is LEGAL. By signing, Armenia would have legalized the deal in the no longer legally valid Kars treaty.
    8. The Treaty of Sevres is the darkest secret that Turkey has been ignoring and trying to bury 50 feet under ground. Ataturk was able to weasel his way out of it by striking oil revenue deals with the corrupt Allies in exchange of keeping the Armenian lands in the Treaty of Lausanne 1923.
    9. The destitute Armenian refugees watched powerlessly as their lands were bartered for percentages of oil revenue between morally corrupt countries. Thanks to the Genocide, no Armenians were left in those lands to speak up against this (that was the idea from the get go), most of their leaders were killed and they were now under the oppressive Soviet regime.

    If you call disarming a population, recruiting its youth into your army to have them massacred by their army buddies, arresting their writers, poets, journalists, religious and political leaders then killing them, telling the women and children to pack their valuables because they were being deported then steeling their valuables on the road and having them rut in the desert with no water and food, taking them to remote places and bringing in the chettehs to massacre them, taking away all their homes and bank accounts and destroying their churches “an honorable and legal way to conquer a supposed war”… then why is Turkey standing in the way of Israel… why don’t you tell your brothers the Palestinians not to be backward looking and accept their fate. You are being hypocrites by treating ”deporting and killing innocent civilians” as legal acts of civilization. The Armenians lost their lands in eastern Turkey in 1921, the Palestenians lost their lands a mere 27 years or so later. Who are you calling backward looking… You are too scared to look back! It does not suit you to look back!

    I asked you both to tell me how I could be compensated for my grandfather’s home, his horses, his stores and bank accounts. I am not asking for Western Armenia to be returned to me. I am asking you how I can get compensated for my family’s belongings that were taking away from them. Neither of you responded. Should I call you cowards!…

    Katia K.
    Rebecca and Boyajian,
    Point well taken. We need leaders who will ask Turkey to fess up now! We need Armenia to raise official claims against Turkey for the Genocide, lands, and restitution NOW. To do this, we need to hold our politicians accountable for their acts. Enough waiting. The more we waited, the more we gave Turkey the time and luxury to destroy more evidence, brainwash its people and the entire world by concocting all sorts of creative fabrications to serve as explanations about the disappearances of the indigenous Armenians from their ancestral lands. The funniest being that they “were deported, and they unfortunately died of hunger and disease”, as if these poor people were being relocated in carriages to the Four Seasons.

    Deporting the indegenous people of a land is part of Genocide. Deporting them on FOOT, marching them in circles, allowing them no food or water, raping, attacking and steeling from them are acts of Genocide. Massacring them in the hundreds in the remote desert of Del Zor is an act of Genocide.

    This crime will not go away, until it is legally paid for.

    This is the time when we have to shape our legal case. This is not the time to brood about in a defeatist stance, bitc…g about where Armenians went wrong. If we did some things wrong, this is the time to work together to right them.

    paul
    Karekin,

    You ask: “do you not think the case has been made at some point during the last 95 years? Where has international law been all this time?” The difference between then and now is that until recently there has been no subject of international law to make the case. Illustrious Diaspora Armenians making it were not subjects of international law, the Republic of Armenia is.

    As for the other party, it cannot always say ‘no’, because our case is not about a rubbery in Istanbul’s Besiktas district, it is about a crime against all humanity based on which term “genocide” has been coined and a UN Convention adopted. To say that “it’s virtually impossible to do it on our own” is also misleading. Almost 30 foreign governments adopted genocide resolutions, so did many provincial governments, international organizations, professional associations, advocacy groups, scores of historians, genocide scholars, lawyers, Nobel prize winners, prominent intellectuals. Are they not essential part of the world or you expect 6 bln people to sympathize with us?

    History is part of any nation’s collective identity and sense of security. History shapes our present-time perceptions, keeps us on alert about threats and the environment we live in. In other words, it supplements our awareness about threats to our existence. If you’re so concerned about Armenia and Artsakh that could be “taken away”, why won’t you ask Turks as to why they continue to refuse establishing diplomatic relations and open the common border with Armenia? Why did they impose blockade of Armenia that never placed genocide recognition as a precondition to establish relations with Turkey? Because Turks’ objective is not having “zero problems with neighbors”. If it were, Turks would have already established relations with Armenia. It is exactly the history and our memories of their barbarism that they want to suppress. In vain.

    boyajian
    Katia, with so much pessimism out there, I really appreciate your strong voice for our cause. Your encouragement to others to keep struggling for justice by leaving past mistakes behind and focusing on what we need to succeed today is right on target.

    Paul, thanks for putting the proper perspective on why the international law angle has not been fully pursued in 95 years. We now have a free nation which can press for international law and call for support of our cause from other nations based on principles of human justice which the nations of the world uphold. We are not alone, Karekin Pessimistian, but we aren’t going to get the support of other nations unless we call for it with the confidence that comes from knowing you are on the right side of justice. Giving up, giving in, accepting the results of Turkish inhumanity toward our nation, is a betrayal to the principles of justice and equal rights of all people, a betrayal of our God given humanity. We must never give up. JMO

    gayane
    Boyajian… you just made me laugh..:)

    Karekin Pessimistian.. I LOVE IT…lol

    G

    Tunahan
    Lausanne Treaty is the final treaty concluding World War I, between Turkey (successor to the Ottoman Empire) and the Allies. Signed in Lausanne, Switz., it replaced the Treaty of Sèvres (1920) and recognized the boundaries of the modern state of Turkey. Property, rights and interests issues were already settled in the articles 65, 66, 69 and 70 of Lausanne Treaty.
    Here are these articles (from: http://www.hri.org/docs/lausanne/): Lausanne Treaty:

    Part III SECTION I. PROPERTY, RIGHTS AND INTERESTS.
    ARTICLE 65. Property, rights and interests which still exist and can be identified in territories remaining Turkish at the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty, and which belong to persons who on the 29th October, 1914, were Allied nationals, shall be immediately restored to the owners in their existing state.

    Reciprocally, property, rights and interests which still exist and can be identified in territories subject to the sovereignty or protectorate of the Allied Powers on the 29th October, 1914, or in territories detached from the Ottoman Empire after the Balkan wars and subject to-day to the sovereignty of any such Power, and which belong to Turkish nationals, shall be immediately restored to the owners in their existing state.

    The same provision shall apply to property, rights and interests which belong to Turkish nationals in territories detached from the Ottoman Empire under the present Treaty, and which may have been subjected to liquidation or any other exceptional measure whatever on the part of the authorities of the Allied Powers.

    All property, rights and interests situated in territory detached from the Ottoman Empire under the present Treaty, which, after having been subjected by the Ottoman Government to an exceptional war measure, are now in the hands of the Contracting Power exercising authority over the said territory, and which can be identified, shall be restored to their legitimate owners, in their existing state.

    The same provision shall apply to immovable property which may have been liquidated by the Contracting Power exercising authority over the said territory. All other claims between individuals shall be submitted to the competent local courts. All disputes relating to the identity or the restitution of property to which a claim is made shall be submitted to the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal provided for in Section V of this Part.

    ARTICLE 66. In order to give effect to the provisions of the first and second paragraphs of Article 65 the High Contracting Parties will, by the most rapid procedure, restore the owners to the possession of their property, rights and interests free from any burdens or encumbrances with which such property, rights and interests may have been charged without the consent of the said owners.

    It will be the duty of the Government of the Power effecting the restitution to provide for the compensation of third parties who may have acquired the property directly or indirectly from the said Government and who may be injured by this restitution. Disputes which may arise in connection with such compensation shall be dealt with by the ordinary courts. In all other cases it will be open to any third parties who may be injured to take action against whoever is responsible, in order to obtain compensation.

    In order to give effect to these provisions all acts of transfer or other exceptional war measures, which the High Contracting Parties may have carried out in respect of enemy property, rights and interests, shall be immediately cancelled and stayed when liquidation has not yet been completed. Owners who make claims shall be satisfied by the immediate restitution of their property, rights and interests as soon as these shall have been identified.

    When at the date of the signature of the present Treaty the property, rights and interests, the restitution of which is provided for in Article 65. have been liquidated by the authorities of one of the High Contracting Parties, that Party shall be discharged from the obligation to restore the said property, rights and interests by payment of the proceeds of the liquidation to the owner.

    If, on application being made by the owner, the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal provided for by Section V finds that the liquidation was not effected in such conditions as to ensure the realisation of a fair price, it will have the power, in default of agreement between the parties, to order the addition to the proceeds of the liquidation of such amount as it shall consider equitable. The said property, rights and interests shall be restored if the payment is not made within two months from the agreement with the owner or from the decision of the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal mentioned above.

    ARTICLE 69. No charge, tax or surtax to which, by virtue of the privileges which they enjoyed on the 1st August, 1914, Allied nationals and their property were not subject, shall be collected from Allied subjects or their property in respect of the financial years earlier than the financial year 1922-23. If any sums have been collected after the 15th May, 1923, in respect of financial years earlier than the financial year 1922-l923, the amount shall be refunded to the persons concerned, as soon as the present Treaty comes into force. No claim for repayment shall be made as regards sums encashed before the 15th May, 1923.

    ARTICLE 70. Claims based on Articles 65, 66 and 69 must be lodged with the competent authorities within six months, and, in default of agreement, with the Mixed Arbitral Tribunal within twelve months, from the coming into force of the present Treaty.

    Boyajian
    Does it say anywhere in the treaty of Lausanne that it nullifies the treaty of Sevres?

    Jannaan
    You say Kars Treaty signed by Russia is void because SSCB is no longer…
    Now defunct Ottoman Empire signed Sevres Treaty so go ask the Sultan for your reparation.

    paul
    “Lausanne Treaty is the final treaty concluding World War I, between Turkey (successor to the Ottoman Empire) and the Allies. Signed in Lausanne, Switz., it replaced the Treaty of Sèvres (1920) and recognized the boundaries of the modern state of Turkey.”

    – Tunahan: You didn’t elaborate on or just deliberately omitted the fact that the Republic of Armenia was not an Ally at the time of signing of the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), because it has been occupied by Russian Bolsheviks and was forcibly integrated into the USSR. The USSR ceased to exist in 1991, therefore, the only legal document signed by Turkey (Ottoman Empire at the time) on the one hand and the Republic of Armenia on the other is the Treaty of Sèvres. Can you refer us to a particular passage in the Lausanne Treaty that clearly says it “replaces the Treaty of Sèvres”?

    – Jannaan: When the Treaty of Sèvres was signed there was no Sultan, there was the murderous Young Turks government, chief perpetrator of the genocide of Armenians. Therefore, we don’t have to go ask the Sultan for reparations. We go after the current government of Turkey, because modern Turkey is officially the successor state to the Ottoman empire, the one that for 95 years continues to deny the crime of its predecessor. We also go after the modern Turkish state because according to the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, which defines genocide based on Raphael Lemkin’s term by reference to the Armenian Genocide, declares genocide a crime under international law which punishment is not subject to the limitations of time and place.

    Osik
    Tunahan,
    You are way off and totally wrong, because if there is any valid treaty and document other that Sevres treaty that sets the boarders between two countries; then why Turkey put this item in the “Protocol” that Armenia should stay in current boundaries and accept the existing boarders between two countries?
    Do you think that item is in there by mistake or it’s there just for fun of it?
    The answer is NO, Turkish government is well aware of reality that the Sevres treaty is the latest and still valid document since 1920; signed between WW I Allies and defeated Turkey; and also aware of the existence of the new map of the region by US; having President Woodrow Wilson as mediator; therefore by sliding the Borders statement between lines of the “Protocol” Turkey is trying to trap Armenia, and if Armenia is that stupid to ratify such “Protocol” then Tunahan your whish will come true and by that the “protocol” which is nothing but a piece of paper; becomes the latest document with a boarders clause; signed between TWO COUNTRIES; nullifying Sevres Treaty and that new map; forcing Republic of Armenia to accept the existing boarders; but since then; as long as Sevres treaty still in force; that NEW MAP must be implemented by US mediation.

    The International law on each side of the International Treaties requires signature(s) of internationally recognized country or countries only; and that does not include organizations, Interim care takers, rebel groups and individuals.
    Now if Turkey knows about any such International Treaty signed after the Severs Treaty which has any explicit statement in regards of its borders with the Armenia; then why should they bother to slide such unrelated subject in the “Protocol”?
    Because all the treaties signed after Sevres Treaty either is not signed by Turkey as an Internationally Recognized country or are not directly related to the subject of the boarders between Armenia and Turkey.

    Osik
    Jannaan,
    You are mixing Apples with Oranges; KARS treaty was not signed by Two Internationally Recognized Countries, it was Turkish Majlis on one (your) side and some USSR internal So-Called “Republics” not Russia, at that time the Armenia and it’s First Republic did not exist anymore; Soviet Armenia; Soviet Georgia which neither were Internationally recognized as Country (only USSR was) signed that treaty.

    The first Armenian Republic was already gobbled by USSR and now after USSR collapsed the second Republic of Armenia is dealing with Turkey.
    Either you didn’t know this or you assumed no one will notice, you are totally off like your comrade Tunahan (You also can read my reply to him and learn more).


    Murat
    This is just great! Armenia, which did not exist as a state for centuries and through WWI, demands recognition and reperations from a Republic of Turkey, which did not exist as a legal entity through those years either. Double irony.

    Does anyone know what “official successor to Ottoman State” means? If there is such legal status or definition, acceptated and ratified, what are the defined obligations? The sole purpose of Luasanne Treaty was to define very specifically ALL the obligations of the Turkish Republic with respect to the previous regime, and retire them once and for all. The whole idea behind Lausanne was to sit accrosss the table with ALL the combatants and resolve and retire ALL claims, economic and political. That being the idea, just imagine the absurdity of people discussing the possibility of opening those chapters now. Lausanee represents joining of the Turkish Republic among the family of nations. That privilage came at an extremely steep price for the Turkish nation.

    By the way, Turks paid for some of the Ottoman loans back to the colonial powers, through 50s. This was a very very poor country then, just as a note.

    What is even more absurd of course is the fact that there was NO Armenia sitting accorss the table from Inonu in Switzerland.

    Oh, yes, there was an attempt by a Bogosyan Pasa, a seasoned Ottoman official, a man who held high postitons in the Ottoman State and government, trying to take a seat among the powers who attacked and fought his OWN country. To make his case he even boasted of the large number of Armenians who armed themselves and FOUGHT against the Ottomans, helping the Allied cause! He was not taken seriously.

    I have always been imnpressed with the ability of some Armenians to delude themselves to depths that one would think not possible. Then again, here we are.

    Katia K.
    “What is even more absurd of course is the fact that there was NO Armenia sitting across the table from Inonu in Switzerland.” Thanks for catching on Murat!! Exactly, that is exactly what the Armenians are bitter about! Switzerland, Greece, Britain and Turkey basically decided what to do with the historical Armenian lands IN THE ABSENCE OF THE ARMENIANS! Do you understand our resentment now?… They decided what to do with our historical lands, lands that were part of the region of Armenia for thousands of years, the same Armenia mentioned by Roman historians when it was part of the Roman Empire… without even having us on the negotiating table! How would you or anyone feel when your ancestral land, not the lands that your ancestors occupied and made an empire with, your ANCESTRAL LANDS, are partitioned amongst countries without involving you in the negotiations or making any reparations for them?

    Janaan,

    If you are Turkish, you should hopefully know that the Ottoman Empire consisted of the occupation of several countries. It was never and it will never be considered the ancestral home of the Turks. The Turks’ ancestral indigenous land is in Central Asia.
    You said that the Treaty of Sevres was signed between the Ottoman government and the Republic of Armenia, and since the Ottoman empire no longer exists the Sevres Treaty is meaningless also. You see, the Armenians do not need the Treaty of Sevres to know where their indigenous ancestral lands exist. The Ottoman empire crumbled and all the countries and regions it occupied were released from its domination. The same Ottoman government made negotiations and treaties to release Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Romania, etc etc… should we tell all these countries that the Ottoman empire no longer exists so those treaties are now nullified. That’s absurd! All these countries and regions existed and had established civilizations long before the Seljuk Turks arrived. The “Ottoman Empire” was an unnatural phony imposing oppressive arrangement… is was never a legitimate “country” to start with… it was an “empire”, synonymous with a large scale “occupation”. And part of the reasons why it crumbled was because of the way these indegenous people were treated by the Ottomans. The indeginous people on whose lands the Turks settled in were treated as second class citizens on their own historical lands. The Ottomans failed to homogenize all these nationalities into one nationality because of their superiority complex. The Armenians were called infidels and their rights were abused… because they were Christians… as if Allah and God are not one and the same.

    gayane
    Well Said… Way to shut Murat’s mouth… next time he will think before he says something..

    Paul and Osik jan.. thank you for pointing out how weak and wrong Jannaan and Tunahan are…but then why are we surprised… of course they will project wrong information and provide inaccurate data… that is in their blood..

    I am just appauled how oblivious and detached these Turks are from their history.. wow…

    paul
    There is no double irony, Murat. You’d be better off if you don’t see everything that’s being posted here through your Kemalist and utterly Armenophobic glasses. Armenia did not exist as a state for centuries and through WWI exactly because our ancestral lands were colonized by the Ottomans who ultimately found a final solution to the Armenian Cause just like Nazis did against the Jews: they annihilated almost entire Armenian race. That’s the reason why Armenians demand recognition and reparations from the Republic of Turkey, which is a legal successor state of the Ottoman empire. Besides, if by stating that the Republic of Turkey did not exist as a legal entity through those years, you attempt to distance modern-day Turks from the Ottomans, might you know why the modern-day Republic of Turkey avoids recognition of the crimes of no longer existing Ottoman Young Turks? Would be curious to know… As for what official successor state means, everyone seems to know, you don’t? Or it’s just not soothing your Armenophobia well? Here’s a legal definition of succession of states: “Succession occurs when one state ceases to exist or loses control over part of its territory, and another state comes into existence or assumes control over the territory lost by the first state. Changes in the form of government of one state, such as the replacement of a monarchy by a democratic form of government, do not modify or terminate the obligations incurred by the previous government.”

    Your understanding of the Treaty of Lausanne is, in light of your overly Turk-tinted observations, is as well poor and contradicting in and of itself. You claim that the purpose of the Lausanne Treaty was “to define ALL the obligations of the Turkish Republic, sit across the table with ALL the combatants and resolve and retire ALL claims, economic and political”. But, Murat, in the midst of ALL of these, as you correctly mention in the following sentence, “there was no Armenia sitting across the table from Inonu in Switzerland.” The bottom line is that the Lausanne Treaty was not a treaty where you can find Armenia’s signature. Allies and Turkey solved ALL their problems at the expense of Armenia’s historical lands. Do you now understand where our frustration is coming from? Therefore, the only valid treaty that bears the signatures of both Armenia, other Allies, from the one hand and Turkey (Ottoman empire at the time) on the other, is the Treaty of Sèvres. There is no absurdity on our part whatsoever, and most of non-Turk international lawyers will confirm this actuality.

    It is also utterly cynical of you to state that “Lausanne represents joining of the Turkish Republic among the family of nations, [a] privilege [that] came at an extremely steep price for the Turkish nation.” Murat, was the price steeper that having roughly 2 million innocent people slaughtered and forcibly expelled? Was it steeper than losing two-thirds of your ancestral (not colonized, as in the case of the Ottoman empire) lands? Was it steeper than having tens of thousands of Christians converted to Islam or sold to harems? Was it steeper than having all your property, houses, pastures, and bank accounts stolen? Are you trying to be objective on these pages, or you just narrow-mindedly defend what you consider “yours” as opposed to what you consider “theirs”? Is this the limit of your intellectual capacity and humanitarian integrity?

    If by “Bogosyan Pasa” you meant Boghos Nubar, again one-sidedness on your part. Ottoman Armenians were colonized, Murat, Ottoman empire has never been Armenians’ OWN country. Our lands were occupied by the invading Seljuk Turks and then made “vilayets” of the Ottoman empire. It was NOT our country, it was YOUR country formed on blood and bones of millions of indigenous, sedentary native peoples inhabiting it for millennia. Armenians never actually fought against the Ottomans on the scale that could endanger Ottoman national security. A few revolutionaries attempted to mobilize masses against the loathed Ottoman rule in a hope to liberate their lands from Ottoman colonization. Why aren’t you trying to understand the motives of the other side? Armenians were not the only ones, ALL of other enslaved nations: Arabs, Serbs, Montenegrins, Albanians, Greeks, Romanians, Bulgarians raised to throw off the shackles of the Ottoman tyranny. We were not an exception, but we exterminated en masse because for Turks losing central and eastern parts of Turkey meant disintegration as nation-state. There has never been any organized, tidily mobilized “fighting” on the part of Armenians against Ottomans, they were wiped out because Turks wanted to salvage as much lands as possible for themselves.

    Your “nation” will pay price for this crime, however delusional and distorting Turks like you can be.

    #
    Jannaan
    How about the Gymru Agreement which was signed by the short lived Republic of Armenia?

    I can see all sorts of excuses to extort wealth from a country you are all so jealous of by playing the victim role. May God bring sense into your mind.
    #
    gayane
    Oh my Lord.. Is this person for real? Jannaan are you from the planet Apes where they do not comprehend anything that is said in human tongue?

    Did Paul, Katia and Boyajian not provide you detailed data for your slow mind to read and understand what truely transpired in those years?

    You are still stuck on the brainwashed Turkish way of claiming and owning everything that is in Turkey as your own? wow.. talk about ignorance and arrogance.. I laughed so hard when I read this person’s comment on “Armenians jealouse of wealth and act like a victim” … I pray to God to instill some humbleness, honesty, humility, justice and understanding as well as intelligence in YOUR MIND and your kind Jannaan ….you definintely need it and in HUGE DOSES..

    WOW… amazing..

    Paul jan.. shat shat mersi.. sirts hovatsav when I read your comment..excellent … can you please use the same tactic (which i love)to show this person called Jannaan that he or she is dillusional in thinking that Armenians are jealous and want the riches which they originally owned and Jannaans barbaric ancestors took from the rightful owners and called it their own….???

    I am still laughing how limited these TUrks knowledge is and how much influence they had from their govt to think like this.. i wonder if these Turks are regular citizens of Turkey or govt workers.. that is something very interesting to find out…
    #
    manooshag
    Karekin, thus your negativity and useless comments need not appear…. We have the generaitons who have followed and today, yes today, still seek the justice due and owing to the Armenians, not just by the Turks who owe reparations, lands,and more. For one, the USA leadership, morally denying the recognition of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation has prolonged the resolution of this historical Genocide. For a Genocide is a Genocide is a Genocide… Armenians, persisitently, seeking justice for all those slaughtered, tortured, raped and worse… can never ever allow the Turk leaders to ‘get awa;y with murders, rapes, tortures so that a Turkey can have the Armenian lands of nearly 4,000 years As recently as the Obama pledge, in effect ‘I shall be the president who recognizes that it was the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians,\. Truth: all the civilized nations who condone the Genocides, allow Genocides to be pursued, allow Genocid to continue from the 19th, the 20th, and now the Darfurians and the Kurds in the 21st centuries… and the Armenian Genocide since the 1890s until 2010, simply because the perpetrator bully,Turkis leaders, still deny their Genocides.

    Thus, until all civilized nations join together and admit that Genocides shall nvever be allowed by anyone, anywhere, anyitme…Turks of today. Manooshag

    P.S. Too, in civilized nations those who commit murders are pursued and then
    justice is served. Today, the killer of Hrant Dink, in custody for about three years is about to be freed. Turkish justrice BUT only for their own. The world over the killer of Hrant Dink shall been adjudged as a “murderer”.M

    #
    paul
    Janaan, by “Gymru Agreement,” are you referring to the Treaty of Alexandropol? I had a hard time making out what you meant by “Gymru”? Is it another Turkified name of an Armenian city of Gyumri, known as Alexandropol in the past? Is it in the best Turklish tradition to Tukify everything that doesn’t belong to your nation? Like Christian Byzantine capital of Constantinolpe turned to “Istanbul” or Biblical mountain of Ararat turned into “Agri Dag”?

    If you meant the Treaty of Alexandropol, then be aware that the treaty was signed by an Armenian government to prevent further Turkish advances into the territory of Eastern Armenia after Western Armenia was wiped out, millions of its Armenian inhabitants slaughtered or forcibly deported by your forefathers. The treaty was signed on December 2, 1920 when the government of Armenia had no juridical power to sign because earlier, in November 1920, Armenia was already declared a Russian republic as a result of the Bolshevik invasion from the north. If you could only imagine the internal situation of a nation two-thirds of which was annihilated by the Turks and their lands stolen and the remaining part forcibly incirporated into the Bolshevik Russia. But you are a Turk, and I don’t believe that for you the pain and grief of other nations matter. Also, for your information, the Alexandropol Treaty was never ratified by the Armenian parliament due to the Bolshevik Russia’s occupation of Armenia.

    Janaan, Turks were the ones who extorted (simply: stole) wealth from my nation by massacring millions of innocent people, stealing their properties, bank accounts, houses and pastures, transforming their churches into mosques and sheepcots, or simply detonating them. We don’t want to extort wealth that doesn’t belong to us. We want what historically and legally BELONG to us and what’s been criminally appropriated by your nation. It’s OUR wealth, not the Turkish one. As a Christian, I pray that God forgives you for derogating us, victims of a crime that the civilized world admits as the first genocide of the 20th century, in that we’re playing(?!) the victim role. If you think we’re players, explain where is 2-2.5 million of Ottoman Armenians now? Whose cultural and religious edifices are scattered all over central and eastern parts of modern-day Turkey? Why even Ottoman Turks called several vilayets in the Ottoman empire “Armenian vilayets”? Why foreign diplomats, consuls, missionaries stationed in the Ottoman empire described mass murders of Armenians as “annihilation of the race”? Explain all this, if you can. If you cannot, shut the h*** up about us “playing the victim”…
    #
    gayane
    Ay jaaaannn Paul jan.. apres.. shat lav asetsir… that is exactly what someone needed to tell this Jaanan individual and Murat, and Robert and yes Karekin.. simply to shut the h***** up….from time to time..well deserved statement if i say so myself… mersi Paul jan..

    Manooshag.. well said my dear.. it is the willingness to let it go to play it nice that got us no where… being submissive and naive and polite did not get us anywhere.. now we have Karekin to stop our path.. but unfortunately, unlucky him that won’t happen no matter how much he tries….

    Gayane
    #

    Katia K
    Thank you Gayane jan,
    Thank you Paul for your great input here…
    Janaan,
    Reducing our rightful legal claims to an expression of jealousy is utterly ignorant and proposterous! Actually it is quite a banal attempt at minimizing a crime that the whole world was outraged about when it happened.

    No, we are not jealous at the successful way your criminal state has taken over other people’s properties, lands and cultural treasures by killing their owners and lying about them being Turkish, we are not jealous of the way the Turkish state was able to brainwash its people and get away with murder with striking unethical and immoral deals with leading countries of the world… We are outraged by the despicable injustice of it all…

    We are jealous of the riches of your country? What riches are you talking about? The riches your ancestors brought with them from Central Asia on their horses or the blood and sweat of the nations the Ottomans ruled and taxed the hell of? Are you talking about all the homes, lands, farms, bank accounts, jewelry, antique rugs, stores and their inventories and even life insurances you stole from the Armenians or all the benefits your country is reaping from leasing out the Kassabian property to the US Injirlik base, turning old Armenian villas into hotels and the churches into Museums with no historical explanations to lure more tourists into your country????

    It is propostorous how incredibly in denial you guys are of what your ancestors were responsible for! How about thanking the Armenians for all the monies, the lands, their country, the symbol of Armenians mount Ararat, 600 years of outrageous taxes paid and ridiculous discrimination endured, and 1.5 million innocent women, men and children that were brutally lost so that you can have your “rich” Republic today!

    We do not hold you personally accountable for what your ancestors have done, but we hold you as a nation accountable for righting a terrible wrong by at least starting with acknowledging the truth. You will either live with this dark cloud on your heads or clear up the air and bring in rays of hope and decency to the caucasus by following the example of Germany.

    #
    Perouz
    Paul; the turks think that by changing all the Armenian village names they can erase us from the memory of the world. They think that if they change the names of the treaties, their terms will eventually be forgotten. This is a continuation of the act of genocide. Denial is a common strategy used by perpetrators. So is erasure of names.
    Karakin asks us to stop looking backward, to only look forward. This is what the Turks want us to do. They want the world to move on, to forget what was done. They draw up new maps with new names that do not conform to treaties, hoping they can erase our people from human memory. Never.
    #
    gayane
    AMEN TO THAT Katia jan..
    There is a saying in Armenian for people who just sit there and munch off of others.. we call them .. BOOT YEV SHATAKER…. that is how the Turkish govt wants her subjects to be and Janaan and the rest who think like her or him, are the absolute perfect off springs of that… it is sad really…
    #
    Boyajian
    What a terrific discussion. We need to see such a discussion take place on the pages of Hurriyet and Today’s Zaman. Our ancestors have not been forgotten and their unjust suffering will not be swept under the ‘turkish rug woven of threads of denial and amnesia.’ Armenians only want what is just and pursue a just resolution to acts of inhumanity inflicted upon their nation. The Treaty of Sevres should be examined for juridical impact today. Both Turkey and Armenia signed it and it was never declared null and void. Not a legal expert myself, I wonder what those who are have to say about this.


    UCLA Reparations Conference Looks at Legal, Ethical, Political Aspects of Justice for Genocide By: Armenian Weekly Staff



    LOS ANGELES, Calif.—The International Human Rights Law Association (IHRLA) at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) hosted a conference entitled, “Genocide and Then What? The Law, Ethics, and Politics of Making Amends” on Saturday, October 23, 2010 at UCLA’s Dodd Hall.

    Organizers and presenters of the UCLA conference. From left to right they are; Rev. Dr. George Leylegian, Aleta Sprague (IHRLA), Keiara Auzenne (IHRLA), Dr. Armen Marsoobian, Ara Papian, Natalie Samarjian (IHRLA), Ayda Erbal, Dr. Jermaine McCalpin, George Aghjayan, and Dr. Henry Theriault.
    The conference featured a soon to be released report which explores the legal, ethical, and political aspects of justice for the Armenian Genocide.

    The authors presented at the conference and were joined by fellow scholars in related fields who gave comment on the subject and the report’s findings.

    “The International Human Rights Law Association is very interested in bringing in topics that are of interest not only to our student population, but also the law school community at large,” noted Keiara Auzenne, President of the IHRLA.

    The report study group was led by Dr. Henry Theriault, Professor and Chair of the Department of Philosophy at Worcester State University. Theriault’s work explores the ethics of reparations for crimes against humanity. He joined Auzenne in opening the conference with an introduction to the reportand its authors.

    Following the introduction, Dr. Alfred de Zayas, presented his work on the legal backbone for justice and restitution for the Armenian Genocide. De Zayas is the former chief of petitions at the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights in Geneva, retired secretary of the UN Human Rights Committee, and former senior counsel with the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. He recently published “The Genocide Against the Armenians, 1915-1923, and the Relevance of the Genocide Convention.”

    Ara Papian, another of the report’s authors, discussed treaty law and its impact on Armenian Genocide. His work focusing on the Wilsonian arbitration following the genocide generated several follow up questions from audiencemembers and fellow conference panelists.

    Drawing in his field expertise in long-term as well as transitional justice, Dr. Jermaine McCalpin, another of the report’s authors and Professor of Government at the University of the West Indies, noted that truth and justice are the cornerstones of reconciliation in the case of the Armenian Genocide. McCalpin has conducted research in this field covering cases from US slavery, Native American extermination, and the Armenian Genocide.

    Several noted specialists commented on the report’s findings during the second, third, and fourth panels.

    Holocaust reparations and human rights legal scholar, Michael Bazyler discussed the pursuit of restitutional justice for and by victims of the Holocaust.

    The afternoon panels featured ethicist Dr. Armen Marsoobian from Southern Connecticut State University who discussed the issues of trans-generational response to the Armenian Genocide as well as the important implications between accepting responsibility versus taking responsibility for this crime against humanity.

    Graduate students and doctoral candidates, Khatchig Mouradian (Genocide and Holocaust Studies at Clark University) and Ayda Erbal (Department of Politics at New York University) discussed Turkish efforts, from the government to civil society, to address the Armenian Genocide and engage the Armenian community within its own borders, in the Republic of Armenia, and the diaspora.

    George Aghjayan presented his research into the demographic overview of theOttoman Empire prior to and following the Armenian Genocide while Rev. Dr.George Leylegian, a specialist on church properties and cultural heritage, discussed the losses in this regard during the Armenian Genocide.

    In concluding the event, Dr. Theriault invited academics on the panel and the audience to continue to provide comment on the report in advance of its formal release. The event was made possible by the generous support of on-campus funding boards. The Armenian National Committee of America-Western Region also supported the event with an educational grant. The Armenian National Committee of America-Western Region is the largest and most influential Armenian American grassroots advocacy organization in the Western United States. Working in coordination with a network of offices, chapters, and supporters throughout the Western United States and affiliated organizations around the country, the ANCA-WR advances the concerns of the Armenian American community on a broad range of issues.


    Comment
    I had the pleasure of attending the UCLA conference on the Armenian Genocide and the reparations movement, which was a first for such a conference for us.

    First I would like to thank the organizers and also the participants, who devoted extensive hours of research and preparation for this event.

    While it was a pleasure to hear all the different avenues we as Armenians can pursue, I cannot help but wonder if this, too, shall be an event that we can only comment on, or if it will take us out of the box we have built for ourselves.

    We have, God knows, for umpteen years unsuccessfully tried to pass a resolution for America to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide. Our last hope and attempt with the election of President Obama has yet again left us disappointed and frustrated—and I can also add, not without the contribution of our independent Armenia which helped to sabotage these efforts and gave Obama and his administration a way out.

    Since we can no longer rely on Armenia to take the initiative, we, the Diaspora Armenians, are again left with the responsibility to make sure our priorities are pursued.

    As an Armenian American, I take offense that this country refuses to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Again as an Armenian American, I also have the right to accuse this country of discrimination against the Armenian Genocide, being the only genocide that this country has not recognized.

    This has caused us tremendous emotional stress year after year. Are we supposed to quietly sit back and try to pass such a resolution for another 10-20 years, or are we going to take bolder actions?

    When I have said to a lot of different people that we should sue our government for discriminating against the Armenian Genocide, the reaction has been mostly positive, but there are also those that look at me like I am crazy.

    Well, my fellow Armenians, what we have tried for so many years has had the success of keeping us interested and of invigorating the youth, but the time has come to also expect results and be noticed.

    I will never forget years ago, at a three-day conference that I attended, the closing comment delivered by Prof. Richard Hovannisian, who gave the best speech I have heard to this day. “Words into action,” he said, and left the podium. Which is also the point I am trying to make.

    Respectfully,

    Credits will be added upon commenter's approval



    LOS ANGELES, Calif.—On Saturday, Oct. 23, the International Human Rights Law Association (IHRLA) at the University of California, Los Angeles hosted a conference titled “Genocide and Then What? The Law, Ethics, and Politics of Making Amends” at Dodd Hall.

    The event featured speakers from across the world to discuss a soon to be released report about the foundations for pursuing justice for the Armenian Genocide. The report was authored by Dr. Alfred de Zayas (Geneva School of Diplomacy and International Relations), Dr. Jermaine McCalpin (University of the West Indies), former Ambassador Ara Papian (treaty law specialist), and Dr. Henry Theriault (Worcester State University).

    CONFERENCE PANELS:

    1ST Panel – The Armenian Genocide Reparations Study Group

    Dr. Alfred De Zayas, Esq., Geneva School of Diplomacy International Relations
    Ambassador Ara Papian
    Dr. Henry Theriault, Worcester State University
    Dr. Jermaine McCalpin, University of the West Indies

    The first panel introduced the report and discussed its details. Dr. Alfred de Zayas opened the first panel outlining the legal foundation for justice for the Armenian Genocide. He noted that the rights to restitution for the Armenian Genocide are based on general international law in force at the time of the crime and recognized by treaty following the genocide.

    His presentation quoted a litany of international laws and principles that forms the foundation for a strong claim to restitution. Furthermore, he drew on comparisons of United States, Australian, and German efforts to redress injustices against the people of Hawaii (over 100 years ago), the Aborigines, and targets of World War II aggression respectively.

    Acknowledging that the lack of execution of the law remains an obstacle to justice and reconciliation, De Zayas noted: “Law, ladies and gentlemen, is not mathematics. And the norms—as good as they may look on paper—are certainly not equivalent to their enforcement. On the other hand, the non-enforcement of norms, even for a prolonged period of time, does not detract from their validity. And you should not be discouraged because of the reluctance of some journalists and politicians to endorse your claims. It is your right to continue pressing the claims until they are satisfied.”

    Carrying the discussion into the realm of treaty law, former Ambassador Ara Papian discussed the different levels of reparations; individual, group/organizations, and the nation or state.

    Focusing on the post-genocide arbitration by then U.S. President Woodrow Wilson, Papian pointed out that the arbitration was an act of state which was signed by the President in addition to the U.S. Secretary of State and sealed with the Great Seal of the United States. “Wilsonian Armenia,” as it was known, was legally a territory of Armenia for ten days.

    “Even though Armenia never de-facto gained control of the territory, legally speaking, it was a part of it,” stated Papian, who went on to note that the continued pursuit of the arbitration ended because Armenia ceased to be an independent state when it was absorbed into the emerging Soviet Union.

    With de Zayas and Papian having established the legal and political foundation for justice for the Armenian Genocide, Dr. Henry Theriault focused on addressing why justice should be pursued and why it matters today.

    Theriault noted that instead of being a geographically larger country with a population over 20 million and regional engagement rivaling Syria, Iraq and other countries in the area, the end result of the genocide left Armenians today with a small, land-locked country in which the impact of genocide, both communally and individually, is felt to this day.

    He noted that this is not only acknowledged within the Armenian community, but also the Turkish community as evidenced by a recent conference in Ankara, which examined the economic fallout of the genocide. The Turkish economy of today is a result of and many affluent Turkish families can trace back their financial wealth to the Armenian Genocide.

    “The Armenian Genocide was an attempt for a very successful process by which the emerging Young Turk movement expropriated a tremendous amount of wealth from Armenians,” noted Theriault.

    Theriault continued by noting that the intense poverty in Armenia relates to the extraction of resources nearly a century ago. Not only property and wealth were lost, but people were lost who could have made tremendous contribution to sciences and culture. Therefore, Turkey has enriched itself based on the loss of the Armenians.

    Theriault acknowledged that there were many naysayers who believe restitutional justice is not possible. Some argue that too long has passed, but Theriault pointed out that a “pipedream can become a reality overnight. Nobody thought an independent Armenia was possible.” “To get things to change, we have to change them even though before the change they seem impossible,” he added.

    Rounding out the first panel was Dr. Jermaine McCalpin, a transitional justice specialist who has studied post-Apartheid reconciliation in South Africa, U.S. Slavery reparations, and the Armenian Genocide.

    McCalpin noted that most countries that democratize use truth commissions as part of the process. However, these he noted that given past examples of successful reconciliation processes, justice is a necessary component, saying that “in order for groups to reconcile, there has to be basis for justice, both material and moral.”

    Touching on the subject of ethics and intergenerational responsibility, McCalpin stated that “just as wealth can be transferred across generations, responsibilities and obligations are also transferable.”

    The first panel of the conference concluded with members of the audience asking questions of the presenters and setting the stage for the remaining panels of the day. These panels further explored the legal, ethical, political, and real numbers with regard to the Armenian Genocide and efforts to secure a meaningful resolution to the issue.

    2nd Panel – International Law and Reparations

    Ambassador Ara Papian
    Michael Bazyler, Esq., Chapman University School of Law

    The second panel of the conference took a comparative look at Holocaust-related justice measures as well as some possible mechanisms for pursuing justice for the Armenian Genocide.

    Michael Bazyler, a Professor of Law at Chapman University School of Law, noted that much of the restitution claims made as a result of the Holocaust in the 1990s were successful for a number of reasons. He pointed to Germany’s admission of culpability for the Holocaust and that this actually empowered Germany and its relationship with the current State of Israel. “By recognizing the atrocities as atrocities, by recognizing the genocide as a genocide, to go ahead and bring the truth to the people becomes an important founder and something that Germany is a great example of,” said Bazyler.

    “Litigation itself cannot succeed. You need to have the support of politicians, the support of the media, and also recognition on the part of the defendants that they are willing to talk, they are willing to have some kind of recognition,” he added.

    Ara Papian followed up his presentation during the first panel of the conference by discussing the interpretation of treaties and treaty law as a basis for pursuing restitutional justice for the Armenian Genocide.

    He reiterated that the Treaty of Sevres was accepted by the parties involved, including Turkey and that the subsequent Treaty of Lausanne does not mention Armenia or the Armenian-Turkish border. Papian returned to the topic of the U.S. President Woodrow Wilson’s post-genocide arbitration.

    “Is the Woodrow Wilson arbitration valid or not? If it is valid, then we have to take the decision which is binding all members of the UN and Turkey,” he noted. Papian noted that treaty law left Turkey with many obligations in the post-genocide era that have yet to be fulfilled. However, it is up to the community to call for the enforcement of the law and the fulfillment of these obligations.

    3rd Panel – The Conceptual and Political Challenges of Reparations

    Dr. Armen Marsoobian, Southern Connecticut State University
    Ayda Erbal, Doctoral Candidate, Department of Politics at New York University
    Khatchig Mouradian, Doctoral student, Genocide and Holocaust Studies at Clark University

    The afternoon panels featured ethicist Dr. Armen Marsoobian who discussed the issues of trans-generational response to the Armenian Genocide as well as the important implications between accepting responsibility versus taking responsibility for this crime against humanity. Khatchig Mouradian and Ayda Erbal discussed Turkish efforts, from the government to civil society, to address the Armenian Genocide and engage the Armenian community within its own borders, in the Republic of Armenia, and the diaspora.

    Armen Marsoobian discussed the issues of trans-generational response to the Armenian Genocide as well as the important implications between accepting responsibility versus taking responsibility for this crime against humanity. “Citizens of the nation-state of Turkey have a moral obligation to take responsibility for historic injustice committed by their ancestors.”

    Marsoobian continued by noting how some Turkish citizens accept responsibility, without taking responsibility. He argued that accepting responsibility by issuing a government statement acknowledging the genocide is not the moral equivalent to the more difficult act of taking responsibility for the wrongdoings. “The difference between accepting responsibility and taking responsibility may only sound like a verbal difference, but the passive and active connotations of these words highlight a significant moral difference.”

    Speaking to the issue of collective accountability and denial of collective guilt, he stated that ethnic communities are collectives that transcend national identities. The moral obligation derives from a person’s membership and identity to a group in the present. “The political, social, cultural, religious, and educational institutions that mark all large communities or collectivities provide a degree of moral reliability that is necessary for individuals to carry on their legitimate interests.”

    Khatchig Mouradian spoke about Turkish stereotypes of Armenians. He said that discourse in Turkish political and intellectual circles categorizes Armenians into three distinct groups: The good, the bad, and the destitute.

    Turks consider the Good Armenians as their “brothers” who reside in Turkey. They are good, Mouradian argued, as long as they stay away from politics and do not demand equal rights and justice. The Bad Armenians are the “Hawks” in the Diaspora who talk about the Armenian Genocide, and the “Destitute Armenians” are those in Armenia who, according to the dominant Turkish discourse, would be happy to normalize relations with Turkey, but are being pressured by the Bad Armenians to hold an anti-Turkish position instead.

    Looking at the attitudes in Turkey and the possibility for meaningful change to arise from within the country, Mouradian posits that it is impossible for a handful of people in Turkey to create a movement that would force the Turkish government to deal with 1915 in any meaningful way. Even many progressive scholars and intellectuals are often not veering too far from Turkish denialists. “No Turkish government will remain in power the next day if [it] in any way makes any kinds of clear concessions on this matter.”

    Mouradian provided an example of Armenians being allowed to pray in Akhtamar for one day, which was countered with an MHP—an extreme radical party—organized Muslim prayer in a former Armenian church in Ani.

    Ayda Erbal discussed the literature dealing with apologies. She pointed out that apologies can change national identities and signal better citizenship. Speaking about the recent apology campaign initiated by a group of intellectuals, she noted that the signers were not apologizing for the event itself, but for the denial of the event. Discussing the text of the document, she noted that everything is in the passive tense, except the “I apologize.” The apology, she noted, does not even mention who suffered what.

    Further, the organizers of the “Apology Campaign” did not consult the Armenians. It was written by four people. She noted that this pulls the discussions away from politics and pulls the discussion into the backyard of psychology, which does not necessarily solve the problem.

    4th Panel – Populations and Property: A Practical Determination of Losses

    George Aghjayan, Fellow, Society of Actuaries
    Rev. Dr. George Leylegian

    George Aghjayan presented his research into the demographic overview of the Ottoman Empire prior to and following the Armenian Genocide while Rev. Dr. George Leylegian, a specialist on church properties and cultural heritage, discussed the losses in this regard.

    George Aghjayan discussed the two primary sources for the number of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire: the Ottoman registration system and the Armenian Patriarchate data.

    The Ottoman registration system initially included males only (no women and children) and served as a system for taxation purposes, not necessarily a census. “It is only after 1906 that you start to see Armenians accounted in any greater precision.”

    The Armenian Patriarchate documents of 1907 were a more detailed summary of Armenians living in Istanbul. In the Armenian Patriarchate data, the system included some Muslims, although it undercounted some children. In 1913/14 some children were not listed, but in the 1915 data they were listed for the first time even though they were born before 1913/14.

    “The great disparity between the Ottoman registration number and the Armenians Patriarchate number are centered on three different districts in the general province [Apaget Province], and that was Chermik, Palu, and Sevre.” Large Armenian towns show less than a thousand Armenians in the Turkish registration, while the Armenian Patriarchate shows a larger number.

    Aghjayan pointed out that these population figures and dates can be used as a timeline to understand what happened to the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire.

    George Leylegian provided an overview of the distribution of clergy to population centers, using the Paluk region of the Diyabekir Province as a case example. One priest served 20 households and 8 villages were administered by a local ministry (vank). At the turn of 19th century there were 6 monasteries in the Western district and 6 monasteries in the Eastern district, each serving about 60 villages.

    Starting 19th century, accelerated attempts by the Kurds to convert the Armenians into Shiites. Priests were killed, Armenian women were sold, and monasteries were destroyed. Nothing remains of their archives. In Paluk, the county out of 240 villages in 1800, it is believed that nearly ½ were inhabited by Armenians, the other by various tribes of Kurds. “The villages were distinct and segregated based on religion. While there was some interaction, boundaries were respected,” he noted. By mid 19th century only 6 villages in Paluk were listed as being Armenian. Roughly 90% of Armenians were converted to Islam.

    Today, there are only 30 churches for more than one million people in Armenia. The Armenian Church today has one priest every 1200 household instead of 20 households. “The aftershocks of forced conversion, genocide, and anti-Christian oppression are reverberating to this day throughout the Armenian community. The human suffering is unfathomable.”

    There remains a suppressive impact on the generations of survivors, but Armenians continue to build new churches and maintain their Christian faith.

    www.armenianweekly.com, www.keghart.com, www.alfreddezayas.com
    .
  • Read More
    Posted in Alfred De Zayas, Ara Papian, Khatchig Mouradian, League of Nations, Research PAPERS, S, Sukru AYA | No comments
    Newer Posts Older Posts Home
    Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)

    Popular Posts

    • 3054) Pursuing The Just Cause Of Their People A Study Of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism by Michael M.Gunter
      Pursuing The Just Cause Of Their People A Study Of Contemporary Armenian Terrorism by Michael M.Gunter West Would Not Support Armenian Po...
    • 3155) FBI Busts Armenian Mafia For The Largest US Medicare Fraud, Identity Theft & Bank Fraud
      March 26, 2012 Update Armenian Power Organized Crime Group Convicted For One Of The Largest Identity Theft And Bank Fraud Schemes Armenian...
    • 2925) Opinions: Kassesian, Sassounian, Aramyan, Novosti, Aramyan, Jabarian, Badalyan, Eckian, Bayramoglu, Toranian, Gürsel . .
      Young Turks: Who Were The Authors of Our Genocide?, Ioasif Kassesian , From His book: Nemesis Are Armenia’s Policies Making Turkey Stron...
    • 3348) ASALA: We All Believed In One Idea: Party
      ASALA: We All Believed In One Idea: Party Interview with "The interlocutor of Armenia," Commander Group "Yeghia Keshishian...
    • 3267) Ara Papian: Woodrow Wilson’s Arbitral Award Is A Valid And Legally Obligatory Document
      Indefatigable analyst of international legal and historical contexts of occupation by the Turks in Armenia, the former Armenian diplomat ...
    • 3026) Human Rights Report: Turkey & Armenia (US Department of State March 2010 Release)
      2009 Human Rights Report: Turkey Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor 2009 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices Marc...
    • 3344) Armenian-Speaking Muslims Of Hamshen in Turkey: Who Are They?
      By Vahan Ishkhanyan / © 2012 Hetq online “I feel uncomfortable conversing through a translator. We can speak that language fairly well, but...
    • 3290) After All, Who Remembers The Armenian Victims Of The Armenian Terrorism?
      Maxime Gauin 30 June 2011 One of the most clear evidence that the Armenian nationalist parties have no right to present themselves as prom...
    • 3030) SlideShow: Armenian Legion In Nazi Germany
      Related Link: Nazi-Armenians Helped Hitler Exterminate Jews . . 12 Images Kindly Provided by TruckT...
    • 3405) My Soul Dear Agop, . .
      After serving the University of Istanbul, Cerrahpasha Faculty of Medicine for 41 years, Prof. Dr. Agop Koto?yan, otherwise also known as...

    Categories

    • 1 (19)
    • Adolf HITLER (2)
    • Alfred De Zayas (3)
    • Ambassador Morgenthau (3)
    • ANCA (4)
    • Andranik Pasha (1)
    • Andrew Mango (3)
    • Ara BALIOZIAN (12)
    • Ara Papian (7)
    • Ara SARAFIAN (2)
    • Aram Andonian (1)
    • ARF (21)
    • Armen GARO (6)
    • Armenian TERROR (24)
    • Arthur Sutherland (4)
    • ASALA (5)
    • Ata ATUN (1)
    • AUSTRALIA (6)
    • Berch Keresteciyan (1)
    • Boghos Nubar Pasha (1)
    • Book REVIEW (21)
    • C F Dixon-Johnson (1)
    • CANADA (1)
    • Captain Emory Niles (3)
    • Court Cases (10)
    • David Holthouse (2)
    • David Saltzman (5)
    • Dennis R PAPAZIAN (1)
    • Dogu Ergil (1)
    • Edward ERICKSON (4)
    • Erciyes University (1)
    • Ergun KIRLIKOVALI (17)
    • Erman SAHIN (1)
    • France (5)
    • Free E-Books (54)
    • Free E-Books And Docs (2)
    • Fridthjof Nansen (1)
    • Fuat Dundar (5)
    • General Harbord (1)
    • Guenter LEWY (2)
    • Gunay Evinch (4)
    • Gwynne DYER (1)
    • Hampig Sassounian (8)
    • Harut SASSOUNIAN (32)
    • Henry Morgenthau (1)
    • Hetq.am (28)
    • Holdwater (2)
    • Hrant DINK (5)
    • Innocent(?) Armenians (24)
    • James Bryce (2)
    • Jeremy Salt (6)
    • Justin McCarthy (11)
    • Kamer KASIM (1)
    • Karabakh (1)
    • Kemal Cicek (2)
    • Khatchig Mouradian (11)
    • Khojaly (1)
    • League of Nations (13)
    • Limited Book Preview (2)
    • Lobbying (1)
    • Louise NALBANDIAN (2)
    • Maxime GAUIN (31)
    • Media SCANNER (4)
    • Mehmet PERINCEK (1)
    • Michael GUNTER (5)
    • Mumtaz SOYSAL (2)
    • Murad Topalian (4)
    • Noam Chomsky (1)
    • Norman STONE (3)
    • O E LUTEM (6)
    • Pasdermadjian (1)
    • Peter Balakian (2)
    • Pierre Loti (2)
    • Rafael De Nogales (1)
    • Research PAPERS (76)
    • Robert Fisk (8)
    • Ruben Safrastyan (1)
    • S (41)
    • Sadi DINLENC (2)
    • Sedat LACINER (1)
    • SlideShows (5)
    • Southern Poverty Law Center (2)
    • Sukru AYA (150)
    • Taner AKCAM (11)
    • Turkkkaya ATAOV (4)
    • Vahakn DADRIAN (1)
    • Vahe AVETIAN (4)
    • Vercihan Zifliyan (3)
    • Videos (43)
    • William Saroyan (2)
    • Woodrow Wilson (2)
    • Yucel GUCLU (2)
    • Yuksel OKTAY (1)
    • Yusuf Halacoglu (1)
    • Zoryan Institute (4)

    Blog Archive

    • ▼  2013 (29)
      • ▼  September (1)
        • Would You Like To Login To This Site & Publish Yo...
      • ►  July (3)
      • ►  June (2)
      • ►  May (7)
      • ►  April (3)
      • ►  March (3)
      • ►  February (3)
      • ►  January (7)
    • ►  2012 (49)
      • ►  December (4)
      • ►  November (4)
      • ►  October (4)
      • ►  September (5)
      • ►  August (3)
      • ►  July (4)
      • ►  June (3)
      • ►  May (8)
      • ►  April (3)
      • ►  March (5)
      • ►  February (4)
      • ►  January (2)
    • ►  2011 (139)
      • ►  December (3)
      • ►  November (5)
      • ►  October (6)
      • ►  September (11)
      • ►  August (10)
      • ►  July (8)
      • ►  June (17)
      • ►  May (16)
      • ►  April (16)
      • ►  March (11)
      • ►  February (19)
      • ►  January (17)
    • ►  2010 (208)
      • ►  December (13)
      • ►  November (20)
      • ►  October (9)
      • ►  September (5)
      • ►  August (26)
      • ►  July (14)
      • ►  June (9)
      • ►  May (32)
      • ►  April (28)
      • ►  March (21)
      • ►  February (15)
      • ►  January (16)
    • ►  2009 (75)
      • ►  December (7)
      • ►  November (2)
      • ►  October (13)
      • ►  September (23)
      • ►  August (27)
      • ►  July (3)
    Powered by Blogger.